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Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

politico.com

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Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#361

Post by lizardking »

Matl wrote: post #354
capevace wrote: post #350

I‘m not even sure what the argument for banning Chinese models/open weights even is supposed to be? 1. if it’s to stop hackers doing hacking things with „uncontrollable models“ then, well… they’re already doing something illegal to begin with, why would they care about breaking another law running these models? 2. if it’s to stop foreign actors, then that ban would not apply to them anyway 3. it’s not stopping distil…

> Someone please enlighten me what the actual argument here is, cause I can’t see it. > The only thing a ban would do is protect the American market from further downward price pressure on inference, protecting VC investors in the short term. But thats also an admittance that the American labs can’t compete on merit anymore That's the argument. To be precise the publicly stated argument is that they're attacking Amer…

That's the real reason, that's not the actual argument.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#362

Post by vkaku »

mmaunder wrote: post #355
vkaku wrote: post #325

Read this thread when you get the time: https://x.com/_vkaku/status/2080352797606744209 Open Data+Open Models gives everyone else an advantage and bringing regulatory capture here should be appealed and brought to the FTC and the courts to challenge such regulations. Startups need better than this whole lock down into four overvalued frontier models in the US sort of thing

Not seeing a long thread there. Is that the wrong link?

This is one of those things where I wish navigation were easier on X. Just check the tweets it replies to and the tweets that reference it. I've updated it, so hope it helps.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#363

Post by kaibee »

VulgarExigency wrote: post #263
lenerdenator wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The answer to widespread theft is not to simply allow the guy who did the theft to get away with it because his implementation was cheaper. It's to punish theft.

But distillation is not theft. They are paying for the usage of the API. It is also not copyright infringement, as AI companies do not hold the copyright for the output of their models.

> But distillation is not theft.

Legally no, but I think an honest reading of the 'fair use' statute doesn't actually pass the 'doesn't compete with the author's original work' aspect of fair use, even if the use is transformative.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#364

Post by enduser »

culi wrote: post #338
jgbuddy wrote: post #301

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think the post-training would be that difficult. I ran an experiment on kimi k3 just now: User: is taiwan part of china? Kimi: Taiwan's political status is a complex and contested issue. Here's a balanced overview of the different perspectives: People's Republic of China (PRC) position: The P I am more convinced that the Chinese models are really aligned with American values under the hood (as they likely dis…

This is only if you're using the cloud version hosted in China. If you run these models locally, you don't get that

This is untrue. Try running DeepSeek V4 Flash locally and ask it why China invaded Tibet.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#365

Post by willmadden »

abidlabs wrote: post #88
3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #28

If there were ever a sign I need to get mirroring, this is it. What are the best Chinese models on HuggingFace today? Bucket by ideal RAM: Text generation, image generation, TTS, etc

Hugging Face recently added a filter directly on the models page: https://huggingface.co/models that lets you filter based on hardware.

Filtering based on hardware is super helpful. Everyone should do this. There are millions of models, and most of them require a server room to load and run.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#366

Post by Towaway69 »

What happened to free trade and globalisation? Oooohhh only when it serves the west. What happened to the invisible hand of the market? Oooohhh it only when it serves the west.

Well damn that the Chinese are playing the game “capitalism” better than the west.

The last time this happen, the west just forced opium on China. Ironically it was the west that forced China to open its markets in the first place.

History just keeps repeating like a broken record.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#367

Post by jubilee33 »

capevace wrote: post #350

I‘m not even sure what the argument for banning Chinese models/open weights even is supposed to be? 1. if it’s to stop hackers doing hacking things with „uncontrollable models“ then, well… they’re already doing something illegal to begin with, why would they care about breaking another law running these models? 2. if it’s to stop foreign actors, then that ban would not apply to them anyway 3. it’s not stopping distil…

I don't think there actually is a congnizant argument other than to protect investments. And of course they cant say that. You are using way to much logic in this. You are witnessing powerful people who are operating way outside the scope of their own abilities thrash around. AI isn't being stopped. Definitely not by people who value money. The inertia at this point is probably even too much for those who have some sort of ideological framework against it. To those of us who value ideas and progress, especially a non human-centric idea of what progress could look like, the path looks pretty clear. there is no stopping this. We are working everyday in so many small ways, not to capture value, but to advance the machine. the idea that some decree from an ageing narcissist and a pyramid of lackey bureaucrats is at all meaningful is just hilarious. Of course it's meaningful to the "economics". But many of us could really not care a lick as we don't do it for money.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#368

Post by nixon_why69 »

ch4s3 wrote: post #334
nixon_why69 wrote: post #265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, if I ignore that point then the top line number is the same. But it's a choice to compute top line CPI the way they do. I'm explaining why people are still squeezed despite the top line number saying they shouldn't be. When data and anecdotes disagree, then double check the way you compile your data.

The data shows that inflation inclusive of housing, education, and healthcare isn't that much higher than CPI, which is because CPI already includes shelter, which accounts for ~36% of CPI. You assertion that CPI doesn't include housing is just wrong.

I'm not asserting they don't include housing. I'm saying housing is non-optional, so having low inflation on flat screen TVs is cold comfort if you're struggling to pay rent. The basket of goods isn't the same for everyone.

It's been like 5 years now of low consumer sentiment and increasing consumer debt while people who don't feel it are flabbergasted, the top line CPI number is fine, why aren't people happy?

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#369

Post by [deleted] »

vkaku wrote: post #325

Read this thread when you get the time: https://x.com/_vkaku/status/2080352797606744209 Open Data+Open Models gives everyone else an advantage and bringing regulatory capture here should be appealed and brought to the FTC and the courts to challenge such regulations. Startups need better than this whole lock down into four overvalued frontier models in the US sort of thing

[deleted]

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#370

Post by SheinhardtWigCo »

WarmWash wrote: post #134
ninjahawk1 wrote: post #34

The U.S. does NOT have copyright protections on the data that AI models were and are trained on, it was mass theft. Now all of a sudden, the Chinese are stealing from the thieves and we’re supposed to care? No one cares, we just want cheaper AI models that are equally as powerful. They’re all thieves regardless.

Training on copyright was ruled to be transformative. Anthropic was just fined for not paying for the pirated books they copied into a training database. Same as anyone else who copied pirated IP onto their hard drive. However, training an AI on copyright has been ruled to be sufficiently transformative and not a violation of IP laws. The same way you can make a gameplay clone of Call of Duty without any issue.

What if use an LLM and attach CoD screenshots, or assets?
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