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Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

politico.com

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Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#261

Post by chalupa-supreme »

WarmWash wrote: post #191
chalupa-supreme wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they got fined for… stealing? Also, if I clone Call of Duty, and use their skins, make a similar soundtrack, call my maps the same, then there will definitely be an issue. I support the use of AI and all, but to hide behind transformative use of copyrighted intellectual property is a discredit to the colossal amount of human work and knowledge that these companies pirated and had their models trained on.

>So they got fined for… stealing? Correct, 2001 napster style pirating of content. You cannot copy stuff you didn't pay for onto your hard drive. >Also, if I clone Call of Duty, and use their skins, make a similar soundtrack, call my maps the same, then there will definitely be an issue. A gameplay clone as I stated, tons exist (team death match, capture the flag, battle royale, with first person gunplay and army guy…

I don’t think I’d equate a corporation downloading TBs of copyrighted works (with the intent of making a profit on stealing copyrighted works) and John downloading a few GBs of MP3s for personal consumption.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#262

Post by JumpCrisscross »

nixon_why69 wrote: post #257
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> by insisting that the major instance of military intervention by a world power that's happened in the last year shouldn't be counted I’m not. I’m saying exempting that, we have an even field of conflict mongering. Counting Iran, the field is biased, but we have significant sampling-timing issues for something like “is there war.” China has violently annexed sovereign countries in the past decades. Its threats to do…

Iraq war? Venezuela raid? Libya? Syria? Afghanistan for 20 years? And that's just some of the higher visibility cases. If China had special forces deployed and conducting ops in random African countries it would be a massive aggression. When we do it, it doesn't even make the headlines.

> If China had special forces deployed and conducting ops in random African countries it would be a massive aggression

It’s literally doing this across its maritime and mountain boundaries! It does cause outrage, albeit less so in mass media.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#263

Post by VulgarExigency »

lenerdenator wrote: post #174
ninjahawk1 wrote: post #34

The U.S. does NOT have copyright protections on the data that AI models were and are trained on, it was mass theft. Now all of a sudden, the Chinese are stealing from the thieves and we’re supposed to care? No one cares, we just want cheaper AI models that are equally as powerful. They’re all thieves regardless.

The answer to widespread theft is not to simply allow the guy who did the theft to get away with it because his implementation was cheaper. It's to punish theft.

But distillation is not theft. They are paying for the usage of the API. It is also not copyright infringement, as AI companies do not hold the copyright for the output of their models.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#264

Post by ClumsyPilot »

GlickWick wrote: post #143
dgellow wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an unfortunate truth that we're exiting a global peace era You’re a tiny bit late on that one

No, we are in the process of an exit. This takes time

Does this sentence have any meaning at all? There are 30 Active military conflicts right now.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#265

Post by nixon_why69 »

ch4s3 wrote: post #260
nixon_why69 wrote: post #233

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because the basket of goods for inflation doesn't separate optional from mandatory consumption. If housing, healthcare and education are outpacing the topline inflation number, a lot of marginal families will be squeezed. The cheap LG TV doesn't really make up for it.

Nevertheless if you lump those costs into an inflation number it won't be a lot higher, the Total Living Cost calculated for 2023-2024 showed 4.4% inflation vs 3% CPI. There are a lot of ways to slice and dice this, which is why people stick to the classic CPI.

Yes, if I ignore that point then the top line number is the same. But it's a choice to compute top line CPI the way they do.

I'm explaining why people are still squeezed despite the top line number saying they shouldn't be.

When data and anecdotes disagree, then double check the way you compile your data.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#266

Post by johnsmith1840 »

Tostino wrote: post #67
GlickWick wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do care. It's an unfortunate truth that we're exiting a global peace era and entering one of (hopefully just...) implied conflict. Our biggest geopolitical rival that's been threatening a hot war also distilling the things we build is not a good thing. Trump is a huge self-own by our electorate sadly, but being concerned about a conflict between China and the US is a very bi-partisan concern for good reason.

Ask yourself, who seems to be the destabilizing force if you take a step back and look at the state of things objectively? There is some blame on all sides for sure, not saying it's black and white...but come on.

Almost all current world events as of now are directly tied to the fact that the west is in active freakout mode over china building a army large enough to attack the entire world. Iran and venuzuela are a direct response to it.

1. China is actively genociding an entire ethnic people.

2. They are actively building a military larger and faster than any country on earth in all of history.

3. They are actively threatening ALL of their neighbors with war. Actively attacking their ships and building military bases in other countries territory.

4. China's open stated goals are to conquer and control its neighbors and every single step over the last 10 years is proof of that.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#267

Post by ClumsyPilot »

dataflow wrote: post #161
4wsn wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I keep hearing about this "we" as if it's still a coherent nation state and not just an unaccountable ruling class from both parties where the most severe consequence is failing upwards into a lobbyist provided position. I literally have no moral preference when it comes to the US or the CCP nor do I care if the entire nation state fails, let alone loses to a geopolitical rival.

> nor do I care if the entire nation state fails You should care because of the nukes, if nothing else.

Nukes are the only thing keeping corrupt ruling class and their ambitions in check. On either side of ideological divide.

It’s the only weapon that’s going to hit them along with the foot soldiers

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#268

Post by intrasight »

jgbuddy wrote: post #78

The point of open weight models is that this is not possible, companies will be built by taking 'contraband' chinese open weight models and marketing as something from the US

Without a massive amount of post-training, it will be obvious that they are Chinese models with Chinese political ideology. I doubt that there's any business model that would work there.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#269

Post by bloppe »

nickthegreek wrote: post #209
chmod775 wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The judge explicitly ruled that training on the books was fine. They just should have bought them, rather than pirating them. Also LLM output is not IP (in itself) in the first place, nor would Anthropic want to claim it is and that they have rights to it - that would drive paying customers away. The issue comes down to at most ToS violations.

> They just should have bought them, rather than pirating them. Bought, scanned and destroyed them I believe. The judge okay'd Destructive Scanning.

Destruction is not necessary. Google Books is a solid precedent. You can keep the content, you just can't make significant parts publicly available

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#270

Post by jnovek »

spwa4 wrote: post #189
sznio wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

yep, theft but not plagiarism.

Theft would give the victim a one-time payment, plagiarism would have given the victims payments every time the model was used. In other words: IP stealing through training LLMs is declared 100% legal. The question is what happens when somebody mass-"uncopyrights" entire libraries of content for the first time. Because, of course, this judgement should have sent the stock price of Disney, Paramount, Warner Bros, New…

If I make Bambi 2 and toss it up on YouTube I’m going to be sued by Disney for a wide variety of intellectual property violations, it doesn’t matter if I make it by hand or via an LLM. Nothing has changed for big organizations with a legal team.
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