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Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

politico.com

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Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#151

Post by Balinares »

ch4s3 wrote: post #47
yoyohello13 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we not there yet?

US real median household income has been steadily rising[1] for the last 40+ years. Life expectancy is rising again after dipping and plateauing for a few years. Employment numbers are pretty good given the macro headwinds. The US forms ~5.9 million new businesses per year which vastly out paces the EU. The US isn't without problems, but we're doing OK. [1] https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/MEHOINUSA672N It's incred…

So many of my people in the US can't even make ends meet anymore that I opened a dedicated line of budget to provide help where I can. It's never been that bad before and it's nowhere near as bad for my people in the EU (not that everything is all rosy there, mind you).

You might argue that Americans are just less capable of supporting themselves but I reject that argument firmly. The situation really reads like systemic causes. And I think cherry picking numbers to convince ourselves otherwise does more harm than good.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#152

Post by ClumsyPilot »

nekusar wrote: post #139
ninjahawk1 wrote: post #34

The U.S. does NOT have copyright protections on the data that AI models were and are trained on, it was mass theft. Now all of a sudden, the Chinese are stealing from the thieves and we’re supposed to care? No one cares, we just want cheaper AI models that are equally as powerful. They’re all thieves regardless.

Are public libraries thieves? Is Anna's Library thieves? Is Library Genesis thieves? Is Archive.org thieves? Is PirateBay thieves? They all look like public libraries to me. And better access to all human knowledge is a net positive for everyone.

That’s fine too, in that case Open Weight models made by China are doing humanity a favour

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#153

Post by ch4s3 »

senordevnyc wrote: post #144
ch4s3 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

REAL income is adjusted for inflation. If real median income is increasing then it is outpacing inflation by definition.

Why is it that the cynics and doomers always have such a poor grasp of the data?

I think once you have a good command of data and broader trends its harder to be cynical or a doomer. You just see that things aren't perfect but are larger better than the past on most metrics.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#154

Post by chalupa-supreme »

WarmWash wrote: post #134
ninjahawk1 wrote: post #34

The U.S. does NOT have copyright protections on the data that AI models were and are trained on, it was mass theft. Now all of a sudden, the Chinese are stealing from the thieves and we’re supposed to care? No one cares, we just want cheaper AI models that are equally as powerful. They’re all thieves regardless.

Training on copyright was ruled to be transformative. Anthropic was just fined for not paying for the pirated books they copied into a training database. Same as anyone else who copied pirated IP onto their hard drive. However, training an AI on copyright has been ruled to be sufficiently transformative and not a violation of IP laws. The same way you can make a gameplay clone of Call of Duty without any issue.

So they got fined for… stealing?

Also, if I clone Call of Duty, and use their skins, make a similar soundtrack, call my maps the same, then there will definitely be an issue.

I support the use of AI and all, but to hide behind transformative use of copyrighted intellectual property is a discredit to the colossal amount of human work and knowledge that these companies pirated and had their models trained on.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#155

Post by mywittyname »

GlickWick wrote: post #50
ninjahawk1 wrote: post #34

The U.S. does NOT have copyright protections on the data that AI models were and are trained on, it was mass theft. Now all of a sudden, the Chinese are stealing from the thieves and we’re supposed to care? No one cares, we just want cheaper AI models that are equally as powerful. They’re all thieves regardless.

I do care. It's an unfortunate truth that we're exiting a global peace era and entering one of (hopefully just...) implied conflict. Our biggest geopolitical rival that's been threatening a hot war also distilling the things we build is not a good thing. Trump is a huge self-own by our electorate sadly, but being concerned about a conflict between China and the US is a very bi-partisan concern for good reason.

Luckily for the peace side, the USA's inability to achieve their mission objectives in a war against an adversary that was perceived as being substantially weaker means they are very much less likely to engage in one with a "near peer".

The take away from modern conflicts is that massive military size disparities don't translate into successful invasions anymore.

In other words, it's unlikely USA will pursue a conflict with China, and it's unlikely China will pursue a conflict with Taiwan.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#156

Post by JumpCrisscross »

myrmidon wrote: post #149
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a silly argument. Like yes, obviously it’s of less U.S. concern if one American is robbing another versus a foreign interest. We can deal with one whenever while the other creates constraints. The better arguments are the ones made in the article. Open weights increase competition and thus AI availability in the U.S. economy.

This is not robbing. Undesired distillation is a ToS violation, at best. There is not even jurisdiction over Chinese companies, because they don't sell their LLM subscribtions, unlike US companies, and those comitted much more severe violations in getting their training material than a ToS violation or two (Anthropic already found guilty). edit: I don't see this as legal argument against the ban, more like a justific…

None of it is robbing because there is no violence, but sure. The point is being confused why an external threat is treated differently from internal ones is a self goal in a debate where there are far better arguments for not banning these models.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#157

Post by 1234letshaveatw »

InsideOutSanta wrote: post #32
chrisnight wrote: post #15

> the US can “sanction” companies that engage in intellectual property theft. Peak hypocrisy, US AI companies can train on unlimited intellectual property with 0 rights to it, while Chinese AI companies have to explicitly get the rights to data that isn’t even copyrightable/copyrighted (since AI alone can’t copyright it).

Meanwhile, X.ai committing all of the crimes.

did you mean Xi.ai?

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#158

Post by sheeshkebab »

nekusar wrote: post #139
ninjahawk1 wrote: post #34

The U.S. does NOT have copyright protections on the data that AI models were and are trained on, it was mass theft. Now all of a sudden, the Chinese are stealing from the thieves and we’re supposed to care? No one cares, we just want cheaper AI models that are equally as powerful. They’re all thieves regardless.

Are public libraries thieves? Is Anna's Library thieves? Is Library Genesis thieves? Is Archive.org thieves? Is PirateBay thieves? They all look like public libraries to me. And better access to all human knowledge is a net positive for everyone.

Someone going to public library, copying every book out of it and then selling them as their own are thieves.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#159

Post by lowbloodsugar »

ch4s3 wrote: post #127
lowbloodsugar wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More people outside employment than COVID or Great Recession. Inflation wiping out income growth. Family units replaced by multi-job slavery shows up as “improved GDP”. There’s the powerball lottery that one person wins every few weeks and then there’s the crippling medical debt lottery that many people are “winning” every day. Wake up.

> Inflation wiping out income growth Real income means inflation adjusted, so we actually see the median income outpacing inflation right now. > More people outside employment than COVID or Great Recession There's a lot going on here. One factor is that many people retired early during the pandemic and are going to skew this stat. It's also worth pointing out that the labor force participation rate is ~62% and peaked…

“Inflation adjusted” is offset by the changes to what inflation measures. And again income has only gone up because people are working multiple jobs.

Re: Startup founders urge U.S. government not to shut off Chinese open weight AI

#160

Post by vunderba »

3eb7988a1663 wrote: post #28

If there were ever a sign I need to get mirroring, this is it. What are the best Chinese models on HuggingFace today? Bucket by ideal RAM: Text generation, image generation, TTS, etc

The two major image generation models are both by Alibaba - Z-Image and Qwen-Image-2512/Qwen-Edit-2511. They are both decent but have different use-cases. Unfortunately with the recent Qwen-Image 2 and now 3 it doesn't seem likely that they're going to be doing any more open-weight image gen.

https://huggingface.co/Tongyi-MAI/Z-Image-Turbo

https://huggingface.co/Qwen/Qwen-Image-2512

https://huggingface.co/Qwen/Qwen-Image-Edit-2511

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