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Roblox Officially Supports GrapheneOS

en.help.roblox.com

81–90 of 116 posts

Re: Roblox Officially Supports GrapheneOS

#81
post #7

Makes sense for them to support this given their scale. I wouldn't be surprised if GrapheneOS secures another big Android OEM vendor (after Motorola Mobility) and the user base of the OS quickly grows from its current 400k+ to millions.

I've been looking into GrapheneOS as a longtime Pixel user who is thinking of becoming a bit more security conscious. But, looking around at its current state RE: RCS and camera apps, I think it makes the most sense to stick with stock Android. I also have a really niche feature I rely on daily (letting me "wifi call" from one sim over the data line of the other sim), and it's really hard to tell if GrapheneOS suppor…

> GrapheneOS really doesn't seem ready to be a daily driver.

As someone who has used it exclusively as their mobile OS for three years, it is absolutely ready. Does that mean it's perfect or bug-free? No, but nothing is.

Re: Roblox Officially Supports GrapheneOS

#83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Kernel level anti-cheat seems to be ultimately ineffective. I've seen this with my own eyes with backend data when I worked for a company with a moderately successful shooter. Kernel level anti-cheat is serving a similar function to something like EAC these days, which basically just keeps the lazy people out. With any decently sufficient backend data analysis, you catch these folks just as easy. I am of the belief t…

> With any decently sufficient backend data analysis, you catch these folks just as easy. No you can't. Using server side analysis of behaviour will always get false positives, especially as ML networks are getting better and better at reproducing normal player behaviour. Your server side logic can't detect wall hacks, ESPs etc. > which basically just keeps the lazy people out That's better than nothing. Cheating wil…

> The alternative is no releases on PC.

If you think there aren't hackers on console, you're deluded.

> Your server side logic can't detect wall hacks, ESPs etc.

Correct, neither do the invasive tools. You can get these things without modifying memory or the game, which is the majority of what the kernel level stuff keeps on eye on.

> especially as ML networks are getting better and better at reproducing normal player behaviour.

True, there is no answer here. Again, if the provider is this sophisticated, then EAC isn't helping here. Then it is just the usual cat and mouse, and the kernel level is moot.

> But applications should be able to attest the environment is not modified, which is what desktop Linux lacks. Windows, macOS and Android do have methods to do this.

Also true, but they are frequently circumvented anyway, so ultimately you're at the same level of Linux from a functional standpoint.

I know you're probably thinking that we should just hit all vectors, and I agree to an extent. The problem is that those who charge for cheats easily circumvent (yes, easily, they are literally within 24hrs sometimes of adjusting to modifications by anti-cheat software) the methods you're claiming help. While the data you get from users on the server end doesn't paint a whole picture, it is the source of truth of what the game decided happened, so it becomes the only thing you can rely on. I know folks who specialize in this area who basically believe that online competitive shooters are basically lost and it isn't worth the investment to fight it.

I am of the opinion we should just go back to dedicated servers and have self moderation. Sure, you get false positives if the owner or their mods suck at the game, but at least the players can do something about it. CS2 is a fucking nightmare at the moment.

Re: Roblox Officially Supports GrapheneOS

#84
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, it does. Wine lets you register a VEH. They do other stuff to prevent Wine and virtual machines in general that I am not fully aware of. Even then it's just a fancy party trick, you can suspend the process call the decryption function enumerating all the pages and take a full dump to get the binary FYI; Theia is a very bad product. It absolutely tanks binary performance and does little to prevent a moderately co…

Are the other Zero IT Lab products like their code virtualizer of similar quality to Theia? My only exposure has been that one RE//verse presentation and shitposts on UC.

I can't speak for all the products, but from what I have heard it's pretty bad. Pay close attention to the shitposts on UC, they regularly get taken down but have some interesting information in them.

Re: Roblox Officially Supports GrapheneOS

#85

[flagged]

It would be accurate to call it official support if it means they have set up their app with the privacy-friendly Android Hardware Attestation API on GrapheneOS.

Unless I'm wrong and they just support Basic Play Integrity or a lower one, I don't know much about that. But those would require play services. I could test to see if it works without play services which would indicate they are using the Hardware Attestation API to check the bootloader lock.

Re: Roblox Officially Supports GrapheneOS

#86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So the issue with RCS is that google just this last year made the move from their internal implementation of E2EE for RCS to the standard implementation based on MLS (now that the standard impl is actually viable). They did this quietly in the background and most people didn't notice but in doing so they released new system/OS level services and started relying on those. And notably they did this rollout staggered su…

> So the issue with RCS is that google just this last year made the move from their internal implementation of E2EE for RCS to the standard implementation based on MLS (now that the standard impl is actually viable). > They did this quietly in the background and most people didn't notice but in doing so they released new system/OS level services and started relying on those. And notably they did this rollout staggere…

> What's left in terms of meaningful technical barriers, that would prevent this all from being baked into Android instead of requiring Play Services?

The short version: no open source RCS libraries exist.

The implementation in AOSP is out of date/dead.

Re: Roblox Officially Supports GrapheneOS

#87

I guess that makes sense given the type of adults that prowl on Roblox.

It's Roblox's responsibility to police their platform and the vast majority of bad actors use mainstream operating systems and mainstream services like Discord or Telegram. Clearly lack of privacy does not prevent crime as we can see on Telegram and Discord which are both not E2EE and yet have far more crime taking place then on encrypted alternatives.

wow what a nonsensical argument. "not all criminals wear ski masks. so let's let let anyone walk on school premises wearing a sky mask"

Re: Roblox Officially Supports GrapheneOS

#88
post #35

However, if on LineageOS, which mind you is the only way to get updated (and thus safer) android versions in many devices, they simply block you. Awful.

LineageOS has no AVB support at all unfortunately and most devices don't allow using verified boot with custom keys anyways. With GrapheneOS they can just add GrapheneOS public keys ( https://grapheneos.org/attestation.json ). For LOS Roblox would have to disable hardware attestation completely, which means you can easily just add extra modules such as a setuid binary which makes cheating easy (at least on the client…

While that is true the bigger issue is that LineageOS doesn't qualify for "They do not break the AOSP security model" as it allows users to get root access without modifying the OS. So even if there was verified boot Roblox would still block it.

For me this means that Roblox's requirements are fundamentally incompatible with any device I would want to use as they want to restrict my access and I want full access.

Re: Roblox Officially Supports GrapheneOS

#89
post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are the other Zero IT Lab products like their code virtualizer of similar quality to Theia? My only exposure has been that one RE//verse presentation and shitposts on UC.

I can't speak for all the products, but from what I have heard it's pretty bad. Pay close attention to the shitposts on UC, they regularly get taken down but have some interesting information in them.

I personally liked their Code virtualizer. And it's under active development. Sorry to hear about Theia, I haven't run into it yet.

Re: Roblox Officially Supports GrapheneOS

#90
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is not kernel level, they use a number of pretty fancy user mode tricks to prevent people messing with the game. They encrypt every page and register an exception handler that decrypts the page when a fault is reached to keep memory secure. They do cache timing checks to see if a page was recently in the working set outside of the expected control flow and will flag you if you fail the check too many times because…

While the page decryption trick should work in Wine just fine (ZeroIT Lab Theia does that too, right?), I don’t remember if Wine provides workingset info like Windows.

Yes, Wine was (EDIT: partially) compatible with the Roblox anti-cheat, and there was a period in time where Roblox with its anti-cheat ran on Wine. Eventually, however, a decision was made to block Wine.

EDIT It looks like the Roblox anti-cheat devs themselves explained why Wine was blocked:

https://devforum.roblox.com/t/roblox-on-linux-everything-sum...

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