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Making

beej.us

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Re: Making

#121

Post by jimbokun »

InitialBP wrote: post #55
wlesieutre wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> don’t tell me I did not “make” it because it simply would not exist if I hadn’t created it. So like when I went to a restaurant last week and "made" a cheeseburger with no lettuce and extra onions, because it wouldn't exist if I hadn't created it. To me, making something can mean you did the physical work of its creation even if there's no particular creative expression, like "I made a peanut butter and jelly sandw…

The restaurant comparison doesn't really hold up. The parent didn't go choose from a menu of new apps that they wanted AI to create. They discovered a problem or a feature that doesn't exist on other platforms and they employed tools to create that. Does a product manager not get to claim they "made" something because they plan it out and employ others to actually build the finished product? Both of the examples the…

No, product managers do not get to claim they made something.

They led a team that made something.

Re: Making

#122

Post by sevenseacat »

jddj wrote: post #14

I struggle to even remember the course grained details of things I've had AI do recently. Conversely, there are 100k+ LoC codebases from years ago that I can still generally walk through in my mind's eye

I can look at a project I worked with others on a decade ago, and pick out which parts I wrote, which parts others wrote, remember pitfalls from this part, a struggle we had in that part, even if I have no memory of actually doing them.

I can't do that with a project we worked with AI on two weeks ago. It all just blurs together into "someone wrote a prompt and code came out".

Re: Making

#123

Post by never_inline »

jeffreyrogers wrote: post #116

I think some people are drawn to technical careers because they like details and others are drawn to them because they like systems (now people are drawn for money too, but I'm talking about people who are more technically oriented). My theory is that if you are a systems person you find using LLMs fun and fulfilling and if you are a details person you find that they are the opposite. I have an acquaintance who is fa…

What if I am a quality person and I am disappointed because LLMs are squandering any remaining commitment to quality in favor of quantity and speed in certain environments?

Re: Making

#124

Post by c1sc0 »

jimbokun wrote: post #121
InitialBP wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The restaurant comparison doesn't really hold up. The parent didn't go choose from a menu of new apps that they wanted AI to create. They discovered a problem or a feature that doesn't exist on other platforms and they employed tools to create that. Does a product manager not get to claim they "made" something because they plan it out and employ others to actually build the finished product? Both of the examples the…

No, product managers do not get to claim they made something. They led a team that made something.

What about movie directors? Aren't they celebrated as creative geniuses? They're also just leading a team.

Re: Making

#125

Post by supersour »

c1sc0 wrote: post #124
jimbokun wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, product managers do not get to claim they made something. They led a team that made something.

What about movie directors? Aren't they celebrated as creative geniuses? They're also just leading a team.

A property developer is the other real-world example which comes to my mind.

Re: Making

#126

Post by vhwalke »

I spent the past few weeks building what turned out to be a much bigger project than I thought it would be - with more AI assistance than I've ever had on any project, and I've been thinking about this.

In the end, I'm happy with the AI development. The machine laid a lot of bricks. But every judgment that makes the thing itself was mine: which typeface felt right, which historically accurate detail to reject because it hurt readability, what tone the notes should take, what to cut. Some days that feels like making. Some days it feels like being an editor with a very fast staff. Editors are proud of their papers too.

The important part: I built it for my mom. She can't tell which lines I typed and which I asked for. She can tell it was made for her. Maybe that's the part that survives every new tool — who it's for.

And aside from any question of "pride" .... this project would never have existed without AI support. I wouldn't have had the time. Wouldn't have pushed it to the level of excellence that it shows. And, would have been pulled off to other distractions, projects, and work long before it got over the finish line.

It may be a different world. But, I'm all in.

Re: Making

#127

Post by planb »

echelon wrote: post #104
apsurd wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you. There would be no X without Y person. Undeniably. The scope of the project matters seems clear though. I think it should be clear and obvious what one means when they say "I made this" recipe from scratch. Even then, there's "did you invent this recipe!?" or do you mean you "prepared it in your kitchen?." That scale and scope is very different from what it means to make a film. And it's where I agre…

Future people will look back on this transitional time with curiosity. This is all going to be a non-issue in time. The fairy path of human language is going to adopt "creation" as assuming someone could have prompted it. It's the path of least resistance, and it's something that will only increase in normality in our daily lives and experience. Nobody in the future is going to have these paragraphs-long diatribes ab…

People seem to be downvoting you because they don't want it to be this way, but I feel you're absolutely correct and this in inevitable. No matter how we - 2026 - feel about it, this will be the norm for future generations.

Re: Making

#128

Post by planb »

sashank_1509 wrote: post #111
planb wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course. But I have been programming for over 30 years and I know that I cannot be an expert for everything. Besides that, maybe my capacity for thinking won’t grow anymore. But my capacity for solving problems just exploded in the last few years thanks to AI.

But you didn’t solve anything. AI solved it. If you go to a coffee shop and ask extra ice, less sugar, more vanilla - did you make the coffee or the barista make the coffe and you just gave some requests to him. Using an LLM is far more similar to ordering coffee from a barista than it is to actually making the coffee. Of course the barista didn’t make the seeds, the milk etc. This is not an exact lawyerly statement.…

No. That's the misunderstanding.

You are right, I did not solve the problem "how do I need to layout the editor so the chords appear directly above the correct bar".

I definitely solved the problem "I don't have a tool to quickly create guitar tabulature that I can use on my iPad"

Re: Making

#129

Post by apsurd »

planb wrote: post #127
echelon wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Future people will look back on this transitional time with curiosity. This is all going to be a non-issue in time. The fairy path of human language is going to adopt "creation" as assuming someone could have prompted it. It's the path of least resistance, and it's something that will only increase in normality in our daily lives and experience. Nobody in the future is going to have these paragraphs-long diatribes ab…

People seem to be downvoting you because they don't want it to be this way, but I feel you're absolutely correct and this in inevitable. No matter how we - 2026 - feel about it, this will be the norm for future generations.

I just watched The Odyssey this evening. Loved it! These stories were passed down in song over thousands of years. Humanity scale type stuff. Thousands of years of spoken and written language based connections.

And it’s all survived. Durable.

So I just sit here and think and laugh wow the ego on us. Call me aged out but im not so sure that your vibe coded app or that tik tok upload is gonna hit the same in 5080.

Re: Making

#130

Post by jillesvangurp »

never_inline wrote: post #123
jeffreyrogers wrote: post #116

I think some people are drawn to technical careers because they like details and others are drawn to them because they like systems (now people are drawn for money too, but I'm talking about people who are more technically oriented). My theory is that if you are a systems person you find using LLMs fun and fulfilling and if you are a details person you find that they are the opposite. I have an acquaintance who is fa…

What if I am a quality person and I am disappointed because LLMs are squandering any remaining commitment to quality in favor of quantity and speed in certain environments?

Then you might want to spend more time on the quality of your guard rails. It's the best way to ensure LLMs produce higher quality output. To get the best results, you need to get systematic about enforcing what you want. Guardrails are one of the tools for doing that.

A lot of developers are acting like passive bystanders here. You can take a more active role in the whole process, including doing quality assurance and correcting LLMs when needed. And like it or not, QA is actually still part of your job. A lot of developers never liked doing QA. The good news is that you can make the LLM do most of that. But it helps if you are a bit opinionated about how to do QA. Again, guardrails.

For example, if you care about performance, get systematic about performance testing and tell the LLM to find and fix your performance bottlenecks. I did that with a Go server a few months ago. It was functionally correct but it had a few bottlenecks. So, I generated a benchmark and then made the LLM suggest and implement solutions for all these bottlenecks. Once it had the benchmark, it got good at testing and validating its own solutions. After a few iterations, I had very decent throughput.

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