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Making

beej.us

51–60 of 194 posts

Re: Making

#51
I have a slightly different approach. I've done this as both a profession and a hobby for around 18 years now, and even these days i spend quite a bit of time "making" things i take pride in. Be it decisions (decision fatigue is a battle), code written, architectural improvements, etc. I don't generally feel lacking in this area.

Where i've felt lacking for the last ~5 years though is output. Specifically blocked by having the energy to create all these damn ideas.

I find LLMs neat, albeit their own type of exhausting, as they open up a lot of possibilities for things i want. Ie software i've wanted but have never cared to find the time for or didn't have the time for.

LLMs feel like a software equivalent to a 3D Printer. I don't have to carve it out of wood now. But also like a 3D printer there are some tasks that LLMs are just horrible for. So it's a niche, a skill even, to find software you want that also are a good for for unsupervised development. It's also of course massively more risky than a 3D printed doohickey depending on its internet access/etc.

With that said i still don't really take pride in something vibe coded. I just take enjoyment out of using a thing that i've wanted but never had time for.

Re: Making

#52
post #5

> What's the real difference in that gray area? I'm not sure. I think it hinges on something that has to do with making versus asking to be made, even if that line isn't particularly clear. For me the difference is in the extent that I can reason about how changes in the input affect the observable behavior of the output. When the executable the compiler outputs doesn’t behave in the way I intended, then in 99.99% of…

But does this mean that a 99.99% reliable LLM would turn us back into the mode of us building it again? I would not say so. I think for tasks that are about decisions, having the LLM make decisions is what makes it feel like the LLM did something for me. Consider mowing the lawn. Imagine I had a lawnmower robot that does the mowing all on its own. Despite perfect accuracy, I didn't mow the lawn; it did. If I sit on t…

If the outcome is equivalent regardless which choices the LLM made, then these LLM decisions weren’t material for the outcome, and it would be fine for me. If the decisions don’t materially change the result, then it means that I can still reason about the output that will be produced. If, on the other hand, the decisions materially change the output, then this also breaks the ability for the prompter to predict what will be produced.

This is analogous to the compiler example: It generally doesn’t matter which exact variation of machine instructions the compiler chooses to generate from the source code. It doesn’t significantly impact the ability to predict the resulting program’s behavior in detail based on the source code.

This predictability relation is what allows the creator to reason about the creation, to reason about which exact change to apply to the input to effect a precise modification in the output.

In that sense, the robot lawnmower is like a compiler, if it yields the state of lawn that I specified. I largely don’t care if it first moved left or right, the same as I largely don’t care if a compiler translates a multiplication by a power of two with a shift instruction or a multiplication instruction.

However, we use LLMs precisely for their heuristics, for their property to actually make material choices. Therefore LLMs inherently conflict with the ability to reason about which exact input will yield which desired output.

Re: Making

#53
post #20

I know many people agree but I can’t really follow this sentiment. I can still take pride in something I “made” with an LLM even if I did not write a single line of code for it. I wouldn’t show it around and proclaim what a great programmer I am, because I did not program it, but coding was never the main goal, it was always the means to create the finished end product. When I plan a remake of my garden and then hire…

> don’t tell me I did not “make” it because it simply would not exist if I hadn’t created it.

So like when I went to a restaurant last week and "made" a cheeseburger with no lettuce and extra onions, because it wouldn't exist if I hadn't created it.

To me, making something can mean you did the physical work of its creation even if there's no particular creative expression, like "I made a peanut butter and jelly sandwich."

It can also apply to tasks where you've offloaded a bunch of work that once would've been done by hand, like "I made this bench using a circular saw."

Where things get hairy even with physical objects is processes like CNC or 3D printers. If you download "Articulated dragon.stl" from a website and press the print button, did you make that? Personally, no. But if you designed your own flexy dragon and printed it, then yes. If you set up a relief carving on a CNC machine or do a perfectly fit inlay, are you making that? Operating these still takes quite a bit of knowledge and skill, but different knowledge and skill from hand woodworking. What if the tools improve and become very easy to operate?

I don't think there's a hard line you can draw. But if there is, it's somewhere between "did everything by hand with no assistance from recently invented tools because those are cheating" and "ordered a sandwich and waited for the finished result to show up."

Re: Making

#54
>Convert this C program into x86_64 assembly for Linux.

I made this argument yesterday that this is the real breakthrough for coding. Languages, syntax, frameworks, etc. no longer matters. ASM, Fortran, even punch cards are back on the menu if you're bold enough to prompt for it.

Re: Making

#55
post #20

I know many people agree but I can’t really follow this sentiment. I can still take pride in something I “made” with an LLM even if I did not write a single line of code for it. I wouldn’t show it around and proclaim what a great programmer I am, because I did not program it, but coding was never the main goal, it was always the means to create the finished end product. When I plan a remake of my garden and then hire…

> don’t tell me I did not “make” it because it simply would not exist if I hadn’t created it. So like when I went to a restaurant last week and "made" a cheeseburger with no lettuce and extra onions, because it wouldn't exist if I hadn't created it. To me, making something can mean you did the physical work of its creation even if there's no particular creative expression, like "I made a peanut butter and jelly sandw…

The restaurant comparison doesn't really hold up. The parent didn't go choose from a menu of new apps that they wanted AI to create. They discovered a problem or a feature that doesn't exist on other platforms and they employed tools to create that. Does a product manager not get to claim they "made" something because they plan it out and employ others to actually build the finished product?

Both of the examples the parent gave include some kind of planning and ideating to get to a final product, regardless of the fact that they employed tools to do a bulk of the coding work.

Re: Making

#56
post #45

Does a machinist who uses CNC qualify as a machinist? Is his required knowledge of metals, assembly complexity, tolerances, just waved away because he doesn't turn the dials or change the tools any more?

> Does a machinist who uses CNC qualify as a machinist? Yes. The CNC doesn't act on its own. If I ask the CNC "make me a widget", am I a machinist?

I think you nailed it. If the CNC machine makes your widget, then you made it. If it didn't make you the widget correctly, then you made a paperweight, and you're not a machinist, you're somebody making paperweights.

Re: Making

#57
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In your examples, you didn’t “make” anything. The person whose work trained the LLM made the work. The landscaper made the lawn. I don’t know how it’s possible to take pride in doing nothing. I can hire a maid to make my bed for me and tell her how exactly to fluff my pillows and duvet but I would take no pride in that.

Your compiler created the bytecode that the CPU runs. How can you take pride in writing your Rust code?

How can you take pride in writing a novel when it’s Notepad and Windows that is translating keystrokes to letters?

Re: Making

#58
Firstly, this is the best TLDR I've read in a while and it convinced me to read the whole thing.

> TLDR: I gain a lot of fulfillment by making things. I don't consider things built by others at my request to be made by me, and are therefore much less fulfilling. And then I feel sad. This article starts strong and then heads off into the weeds.

Secondly, maybe this conversations boils into: what level of abstraction are we comfortable working at?

I mean that to the tune of "To bake an apple pie, you must first create the universe".

Few people will create the universe (please introduce yourself, if you are one); some will buy the apples and the crust and put them together; some will make the crust from scratch; some will grow the apples from seed; some will follow a recipe; some will buy a frozen pie; some will simply buy the pie.

I think we can all agree that buying the pie is not baking it. But what about the others? To me, there's an argument that all of them are "baking the pie", just taking place at different levels of abstraction. And I think you can take pride in any of them, and hopefully more pride in whether the pie is delicious and well-shared.

Re: Making

#59
post #8

This, I’ve completely lost interest in side projects outside of work since the emergence of LLMs. It does nothing for me any more

It's the complete opposite for me, my interest in side projects has exploded.

It was never about writing every line by hand, it was about solving a problem and making my life better. LLMs let me do that at a speed never seen before.

I was and am and avid Home Assistant fan but the number of automations/scripts I now have is higher by a magnitude than ever before. Few things would reach the level where it made sense to spend my time writing and debugging a workflow but now I can speak my automations into existence.

Yesterday I got a candle warmer, I wanted to set it up so when I turned it on it started a timer to turn off and I wanted a push notification to see if I wanted to extend the timer when it was close to finishing. All things I knew were possible but HA YAML is miserable (all YAML is) and the UI is not much better (it's a hard problem, I get it). I prompted Claude and had a working implementation in My HA automations have never been more bulletproof and if they do something wrong it's as simple as telling Claude Code and having it fix the problem. For example, my motion activated lights (motion sensor -> HA -> smart switch) were working great but I realize that while in the shower my main bathroom lights would sometimes turn off. 1 prompt later and Claude grouped up my motion sensor in the shower to the one in the bathroom so if motion on either was detected the lights would stay on but the shower light would only turn on if its motion detector detected motion.

HA is only one small part of my LLM usage but it's representative of my overall point.

Re: Making

#60
We're in a big interconnected social system. If you're landing changes, it's dependent on the internal tooling, internal documentation, and the broader social system that you're a part of. Attachment to individual outcomes is the problem. The productivity comes from the integration.

Maybe the sense of alienation people are experiencing right now is because code is the one concrete thing they drive which is "independent" from this social matrix. Most of the real value I've ever delivered doing this SWE thing wasn't through code, it was through understanding the system, recognizing issues, and working with leadership on addressing them

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