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Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

blog.ericgoldman.org

431–440 of 597 posts

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#431

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, this is an argument that exists. But it's not supported by evidence. It's the same as the old "video game violence should be outlawed because it might cause real violence", which is just as unsubstantiated.

Yeah, that old canard is ridiculous! I mean, if there were any truth to it, surely our nation would have seen an uptick, in the past 30–40 years, of new generations picking up guns and just mercilessly mowing down soft targets as if playing GTA. Thankfully, that is all confined to fantasy in cyberspace!

school shootings happen when lonely boys with mental health issues a) have access to guns and b) feel like society failed them and they need to take revenge.

the first one is the reason why it happens it america more than any other place. other countries also have youth unemployment and social isolation but they show up as bullying in schools or votes for fascist parties instead of mass murder.

the actual problem is people feeling hopeless, like theres no way they could ever be successful in this world so they want to burn it down. thats why some of them turn violent, when you feel like nothing you can do will make life better the only thing left is making it worse for those you think are responsible, like your classmates or gay/queer people or Jews.

none of this comes down to video games, feminism, rap music, violent movies, atheism or other cultural "problems" conservatives always like to blame. its a social issue that needs social solutions.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#432

Maybe my perception is off, but it seems like there's a huge push by the legislature and some people to do anything and everything to prevent CSAM, yet almost nothing seems to be done to prevent CSA. For CSAM, there's all sorts of monitoring, scanning, identify capturing, etc. But it's all after abuse has taken place, and it seems that many of the people actually arrested are arrested for CSAM and not CSA. This has e…

>if that gets extended to If you provide the government a platform to do So, they'll do Y if you wait long enough

Not everything is a slippery slope. Many things are, but you have to prove each specific case, not cite the general existence of slippery slopes.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#433

Maybe my perception is off, but it seems like there's a huge push by the legislature and some people to do anything and everything to prevent CSAM, yet almost nothing seems to be done to prevent CSA. For CSAM, there's all sorts of monitoring, scanning, identify capturing, etc. But it's all after abuse has taken place, and it seems that many of the people actually arrested are arrested for CSAM and not CSA. This has e…

I'd like to know the link between availability of csam and CSA. There seems to be an assumption that the former causes the latter. That's not to say it's acceptable if illegally produced. We have issues in the UK. So far they've banned 'rape' porn. And now they're talking about 'barely legal' None of this seems to be based on any statistics showing this is actually harmful in any way.

If they ban "barely legal" the next thing will be "barely not barely legal" and they'll ban that, and they'll have "barely not barely not barely legal" and so on...

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#434
post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Sweden we're going to literally have Minority Report style pre-crime registries for potential child molesters. We already have one for potential domestic abusers. Fuck this country. I need to get out of here before it gets worse.

Say what now? What criteria do they use to scan the populace and create a pre-crime registry of any kind?

Probably there's only two criteria: "are you in any way foreign" or "do you vote for the left", that's the sort of government Sweden has these days.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#435
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is crazy people think apple isnt on the side of privacy. > It also ensured pressure from governments and plaintiffs, including CSAM victims, who preferred Apple’s more interventionist approaches, which Apple had voluntarily demonstrated it was willing to do. I feel that Apple open pandora's box with the client-side scanning. It proved that it was technically feasible, and was "privacy preserving". I use scare qu…

> It proved that it was technically feasible, and was "privacy preserving". Didn't their paper disproved by reversing the perceptual hashes to reveal blurred version of the images being hashed, and Apple basically said "that's fair, it's not as robust as we wanted, let's visit this later"? If not, I'll happily stand corrected, but please share sources. Addenda: - Apple's original paper: https://web.archive.org/web/20…

Could this be the correct link?

https://arxiv.org/abs/2412.06056

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#436
post #14

It is crazy people think apple isnt on the side of privacy. Are they perfect? Not even close, but compared to the rest of big tech theyre simply on another level. Apple could easily not do this stuff and it may even be easier to not.

> It is crazy people think apple isnt on the side of privacy. > It also ensured pressure from governments and plaintiffs, including CSAM victims, who preferred Apple’s more interventionist approaches, which Apple had voluntarily demonstrated it was willing to do. I feel that Apple open pandora's box with the client-side scanning. It proved that it was technically feasible, and was "privacy preserving". I use scare qu…

Engineers tend to be too people-pleasing. When someone from management asks "can you scan devices for CSAM without violating privacy?" the answer should not be "hmm... well... maybe if we did it this way it could work". The answer you should give us "no" or to hedge your bets "I don't think so". Same to the government and the court. In particular a court isn't asking for a statement of objective reality whether it's possible, they're asking whether you think you could do it.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#437

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel that Apple open pandora's box with the client-side scanning. That box has been open for years now. Big brother is already watching what you do on your Android device. > A Dad Took Photos of His Naked Toddler for the Doctor. Google Flagged Him as a Criminal. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/08/21/technology/google-surveil...

This is not client side. Images just sitting on your Android phone are probably safe (although Google could push an update at any time). Your images get scanned when you back them up, send them over RCS, etc. I have even seen criminal cases originating from reverse image search - anything that touche the servers of the big tech companies, except apparently Apple, will be scanned using questionable AI and against a se…

You shouldn't trust any Android phone not running GrapheneOS or similar.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#438
post #236

Maybe my perception is off, but it seems like there's a huge push by the legislature and some people to do anything and everything to prevent CSAM, yet almost nothing seems to be done to prevent CSA. For CSAM, there's all sorts of monitoring, scanning, identify capturing, etc. But it's all after abuse has taken place, and it seems that many of the people actually arrested are arrested for CSAM and not CSA. This has e…

Because it isn't about CSAM, IMO. You see this with plenty of social issues, notably firearms ownership. The claim is we will restrict/license/outlaw xyz for the kids, but really, a data-drive approach would have focused on different things entirely (eg additional behavioral health services for kids, suicide prevention etc) The same technology/access used for CSAM identification can find copyrighted files, materials…

The thing is that a society does not always do only ONE thing. You mentioned that there are better ways to protect kids. But maybe they cost more (e.g. banning firearms is dead cheap, while setting up a structure with lots of psychologists specialized in teenager problems is really expensive).

Also you can do one and the other ... at the same time. E.g. suicides of kids/teenagers (And keep in mind, the total deaths by firearms in Germany in 2024 was "just" 168 (we have 1/4th of the US population, in the US police forces alone killed more people ... the total number of 44'000 firearms deaths in USA/2024 is even more staggering). Even if I multiply the 168 by 4 for the population difference ... then 672 vs. 44'000 is still a point of shame for the USA.

So in Germany, we do BOTH better regarding firearms AND regarding health services on kids. And if the USA truly would try MAGA they'd actually copy good results from other countries. So a real-MAGA-person must be against liberal firearms distribution AND for better social health work with teenagers.

BTW, the USA ideology of "the population needs arms to fight a corrupt state" is laughable. When you had your armed religious sects clash with the state, then the state always won. They still have more and better weapons and armor. On the other side, if you look how east-europe shed off their socialist regimes 40 years ago, than nowhere was an armed general population involved. So one can conclude that private firearms may as well be highly regulated and diminshed.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#439
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is very much like WhatsApp. Yes you cant perfectly trust their E2EE against state actors, but both in fact put some effort into making world have little bit more privacy. At least on Desktop we have usable Linux, but on the phones there is literally nothing usable because thanks to Google efforts switching to GrapheneOS mean tons of apps either not working or break every few months. Yes its possible to make And…

> hanks to Google efforts switching to GrapheneOS mean tons of apps either not working or break every few months. I've been using GrapheneOS for years and that hasn't been my experience. There are two financial apps that don't work for me, and that's it. Pretty much everything else I use is fine. But, to be fair, I'm very scrupulous about my apps and tend to avoid installing an app for every little thing that wants m…

My experience is the same as yours. Even several financial apps work. And why shouldn't they? It's a safer OS to do finances than any other. Apps that blacklist Graphene are either data-stealing or just misguided.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#440
post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Apple is very much like WhatsApp. Yes you cant perfectly trust their E2EE against state actors, but both in fact put some effort into making world have little bit more privacy. At least on Desktop we have usable Linux, but on the phones there is literally nothing usable because thanks to Google efforts switching to GrapheneOS mean tons of apps either not working or break every few months. Yes its possible to make And…

WhatsApp insists on having access to your contact list. Pro-privacy, it ain't. It's still a Meta product.

So does Signal.
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