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Kimi K3 Is Competitive with Fable; Kimi K3 and Fable Is SoTA

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Re: Kimi K3 Is Competitive with Fable; Kimi K3 and Fable Is SoTA

#171

Post by wand3r »

culi wrote: post #3

A third the cost, open source, and won't refuse every other request because of some vague possible connection to cybersecurity concerns.

There is too much business risk in running on an American company. They can pull the model back or lobotimize it. No Alex Karp fan, but he was right: companies are worried about hyperscalers stealing their alpha. The lack of guardrails, data security and control really give these open models the edge. If you factor in that they appear to cost less, the hyperscalers are in big trouble. I don't see how this works out. Software was always supposed to be deflationary and collapse down to 0 marginal cost but this isn't remotely the case. It's truly amazing to see the state of open weight models

Re: Kimi K3 Is Competitive with Fable; Kimi K3 and Fable Is SoTA

#172

Post by tadfisher »

cookiengineer wrote: post #157
tadfisher wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If weights are the source for models then ELF binaries are the source for software.

Everything is open source if you know how to reverse engineer ;)

Then everyone is open source if you have $20 to spend on tokens, I guess.

Re: Kimi K3 Is Competitive with Fable; Kimi K3 and Fable Is SoTA

#173

Post by re-thc »

steve-atx-7600 wrote: post #166
KronisLV wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In long form tasks, across multiple harnesses (Claude Code, OpenCode, Kimi Code, ZCode) my cache rates are typically 96-99%. I don’t think that’s particularly out of the ordinary. Do people have different experiences with other harnesses? Which ones?

How much time do you spend on your setup vs getting a lot of stuff shipped by paying for fabel 5? For me, not using the best model is a huge opportunity cost since my company can afford it.

> For me, not using the best model is a huge opportunity cost since my company can afford I

But sometimes not using the "best model" is using the best model. Fable isn't the best at everything. Specialization and optimizations might not just be around cost.

Re: Kimi K3 Is Competitive with Fable; Kimi K3 and Fable Is SoTA

#174

Post by Lalabadie »

__float wrote: post #170
digdigdag wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What you're seeing is the distilled (no pun intended) result of realpolitik at play. China's labs aren't as open as they are out of altruism, but rather to capitalize and undercut the monopoly held by U.S. competitors.

They wanted capitalism, no? Here's the competition in the market.

Yes, hah. Historically, the US got its moment to define for everyone what the rules of capitalism and globalization are, and China then played to win.

Re: Kimi K3 Is Competitive with Fable; Kimi K3 and Fable Is SoTA

#176

Post by apatheticonion »

bellowsgulch wrote: post #116
apatheticonion wrote: post #37

I love the Chinese models. I use DeepSeek exclusively and now Kimi K3 offers a great planning assistant for more advanced coding tasks. DeepSeek v4 Flash is extremely fast and is able to handle pretty much anything I've thrown at it (I use mostly Rust, PSQL, Angular and Terraform). I self host Bifrost as my LLM gateway, though I wish LLM vendors would do monthly/daily automatic billing (like VPS providers do) rather…

[flagged]

It's more just the value for money. It doesn't really offer me anything valuable other than billing consolidation - and the markup is excessive for that use case.

If I was using the routing features it would make more sense - but they charge significantly more for that so the markup is really just for billing consolidation.

Re: Kimi K3 Is Competitive with Fable; Kimi K3 and Fable Is SoTA

#177

Post by Lalabadie »

robthompson2018 wrote: post #126
crazylogger wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oracle routing is a method for measuring the best theoretical performance by running the task through each model and then picking the cheapest correct option (the cost/performance ceiling). Their "router" is an oracle reference point where they choose the lower cost model after running both and therefore knowing who passed the test. The cost savings part is only Fireworks theorizing what would happen if an equivale…

The way they published this is baffling to me... surely you can try to implement some router and then see how well it does. Using an Oracles makes the whole writeup so much less interesting.

But then that becomes an article about the performance of your draft router. This one is about the fact that there's this level of optimization potential.

Re: Kimi K3 Is Competitive with Fable; Kimi K3 and Fable Is SoTA

#178

Post by dools »

apatheticonion wrote: post #37

I love the Chinese models. I use DeepSeek exclusively and now Kimi K3 offers a great planning assistant for more advanced coding tasks. DeepSeek v4 Flash is extremely fast and is able to handle pretty much anything I've thrown at it (I use mostly Rust, PSQL, Angular and Terraform). I self host Bifrost as my LLM gateway, though I wish LLM vendors would do monthly/daily automatic billing (like VPS providers do) rather…

Yeah deepseek is my workhorse of choice these days, I mostly use pro because I do a lot of concurrent jobs so speed is less of a concern. When it falls over I change the model mid-chat to GPT5.5 and chuck a couple of tokens over to OpenAI and then once it's correctly found the problem I switch back to deepseek, keeping all the 5.5 analysis in context.

I have been a heavy user of k2.5/6 but they seem to have gotten slower and worse at their jobs (and the "engine overloaded" errors have increased ... ), and k3 spends a LOT of time thinking and doesn't produce noticeably better results. I do keep chucking some tasks over to moonshot every now and again to give it a chance. I figure they're under compute pressure and have probably quantised the models to cope temporarily.

But recently I've found myself mostly using deepseek v4 pro and gpt 5.5 when I need the big guns.

GLM 5.2 has been good at select tasks but really shit at others and given how sparingly I use GPT 5.5 I'm not that compelled to use it. I've yet to be impressed by any Google or Anthropic models!!

Re: Kimi K3 Is Competitive with Fable; Kimi K3 and Fable Is SoTA

#180

Post by jsphweid »

luciana1u wrote: post #54

we put a router model in front of two other models so the router can decide which model is better at deciding things. next we'll need a router for the router and eventually the entire internet is just routers routing routers to other routers

It's all pipes, Jerry.
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