Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#241

Post by snozolli » Tue, Jul 21, 2026, 8:49 PM UTC

rationalist wrote: post #228

giantg2 wrote: post #198

Maybe my perception is off, but it seems like there's a huge push by the legislature and some people to do anything and everything to prevent CSAM, yet almost nothing seems to be done to prevent CSA. For CSAM, there's all sorts of monitoring, scanning, identify capturing, etc. But it's all after abuse has taken place, and it seems that many of the people actually arrested are arrested for CSAM and not CSA. This has e…

> ones who have been involved in abuse scandals in the past (Churches, Scouts, etc) And those groups still have lower rates of abuse than Schools which do a lot less training and enforcement of youth protection policies. Children are still safer in Scouts and churches than in schools. Just about every kid goes to school though, so people just prefer to sweep that under the rug and focus on targeting organizations the…

And those groups still have lower rates of abuse than Schools

What evidence do you have of this? The only sources I can find that would even vaguely support your claim switch to talking about physical abuse in schools, or sexual assault committed by fellow students.

To be clear, we're discussing the sexual assault of children by adults here. We're not talking about physical abuse, nor are we talking about assault by fellow students.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#242

Post by guerrilla » Tue, Jul 21, 2026, 8:53 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #198

Maybe my perception is off, but it seems like there's a huge push by the legislature and some people to do anything and everything to prevent CSAM, yet almost nothing seems to be done to prevent CSA. For CSAM, there's all sorts of monitoring, scanning, identify capturing, etc. But it's all after abuse has taken place, and it seems that many of the people actually arrested are arrested for CSAM and not CSA. This has e…

In Sweden we're going to literally have Minority Report style pre-crime registries for potential child molesters. We already have one for potential domestic abusers. Fuck this country. I need to get out of here before it gets worse.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#243

Post by throwaway89864 » Tue, Jul 21, 2026, 8:54 PM UTC

danaris wrote: post #233

giantg2 wrote: post #198

Maybe my perception is off, but it seems like there's a huge push by the legislature and some people to do anything and everything to prevent CSAM, yet almost nothing seems to be done to prevent CSA. For CSAM, there's all sorts of monitoring, scanning, identify capturing, etc. But it's all after abuse has taken place, and it seems that many of the people actually arrested are arrested for CSAM and not CSA. This has e…

The problem is, the things that would actually prevent CSA require things like "giving children rights", "widely mandating effective age-appropriate sex education even for young children", and "admitting that it's mostly not scary strangers doing it." These are utterly anathema to huge chunks of society, especially American society. It's more and more clear, from the scope of the Epstein Files, just how much of Ameri…

Somehow, even something as simple as "age-appropriate sex education going right down to kindergarten" would tend to end up "special interests education from vocal minority groups."

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#244

Post by rootusrootus » Tue, Jul 21, 2026, 9:02 PM UTC

Zak wrote: post #219

SepiaSapient wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Truly being honest, I think CSAM scanning of private comms is ineffective in the long term anyways. Pedophiles aren't stupid, you'll drag a bunch at first but the networks will be reestablished and sharing will be done via sneakernet. The primary focus should always in preventing the creation of CSAM. - Comprehensive Sex Ed starting young so kids can identify grooming and seek help from a trusted adult, even if abuse…

> Pedophiles aren't stupid I'm not entirely convinced that's true. Facebook is a leading reporter of CSAM, much of it sent through Messenger, which only recently got E2EE, and Instagram DM, which briefly had E2EE but no longer does. If I was going to transmit something that could get me in trouble, it certainly wouldn't be via Instagram DM. Facebook's EU CSAM report is here: https://transparency.meta.com/reports/regu…

Facebook could be catching 99% of those trafficking in CSAM, or 1%, and still be the leading reporter.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#245

Post by FireBeyond » Tue, Jul 21, 2026, 9:05 PM UTC

mothballed wrote: post #156

nylonstrung wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> America actually produces less CSAM in general because Americans are lot more off put by Sex than most other cultures The US has the largest pornography industry in the world by a massive margin, and the largest consumption of online pornography per capita Meanwhile should we be surprised that CSAM production is higher in countries like the Philippines that have very weak digital policing, abject poverty, high numb…

The age of consent in the PI was like 14 until a couple years ago when they changed it to roughly match international norms, in their culture it was considered consensual rather than abuse until very recently.

You can get married with parental or a judge consent at any age in Mississippi, New Mexico, and Oklahoma.

You can get married at 15 in Hawaii and Kansas.

You are "grandfathered" into sexual consent (not as in "marital rape" but "no longer statutory rape") when you do so.

So we may not want to be lording it too much on "international norms", particularly given that most of the marriages that happen at those ages are not "young couple got pregnant" but "older man in conservative/religious community".

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#246

Post by BeetleB » Tue, Jul 21, 2026, 9:10 PM UTC

drnick1 wrote: post #168

GuB-42 wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you still need backups right? For most people "the cloud" is where you backup stuff. If you have a personal backup strategy that doesn't involve the cloud, you are not "most people". Doing backups the right way take some skill and investment if you want to do it by yourself. It may involve setting up a NAS, and some discipline with physical media. You have to do your own security too. Most people don't want to do…

> But you still need backups right? I back up files to my own cloud with a Nextcloud integration for Android. That being said, a monthly or so backup of devices via USB/Ethernet, like we used to in the pre-cloud area, would be enough for all intents and purposes. It's not like what people have on their phones is generally very valuable.

> I back up files to my own cloud with a Nextcloud integration for Android.

Ouch man. Don't do that. Nextcloud is fairly unreliable.

> That being said, a monthly or so backup of devices via USB/Ethernet, like we used to in the pre-cloud area, would be enough for all intents and purposes.

And/or use FolderSync to sync to your PC, and then use a proper E2E system to back up to the cloud.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#247

Post by rootusrootus » Tue, Jul 21, 2026, 9:13 PM UTC

Exoristos wrote: post #203

Manuel_D wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But crucially: > However, the court did not reverse its holding in Ashcroft v. Free Speech Coalition as to virtual child pornography which is not obscene under the Miller standard

> virtual child pornography which is not obscene Does it surprise anyone else that this is a legal possibility?

I get a little twitchy anytime we have laws based on something like obscenity, which is by definition a moral judgement.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#248

Post by slashdave » Tue, Jul 21, 2026, 9:14 PM UTC

EmbarrassedHelp wrote: post #227

slashdave wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> end to end encryption means no CSAM scanning Not true. There is the option of scanning on the device.

Circumventing encryption with client side scanning is on par with requiring encryption backdoors, and goes against the purpose of having end to end encryption.

> on par with requiring encryption backdoors

There is no back door if nothing leaves your device

> goes against the purpose of having end to end encryption

Most people would consider the "purpose" is to avoid 3rd parties listening in

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#249

Post by schrodinger » Tue, Jul 21, 2026, 9:17 PM UTC

godwinson__4-8 wrote: post #238

rationalist wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ones who have been involved in abuse scandals in the past (Churches, Scouts, etc) And those groups still have lower rates of abuse than Schools which do a lot less training and enforcement of youth protection policies. Children are still safer in Scouts and churches than in schools. Just about every kid goes to school though, so people just prefer to sweep that under the rug and focus on targeting organizations the…

Does the school work to cover it up to the same extent? Are people across the school in on it? Are the rates of abuse higher on a per capita basis? Why are you making apologies for (Catholic) church sex abuse? Because you are a member and you took a training? Yikes.

Where did you see apologies?

I read it basically as “schools are even worse than churches and scouts yet are overlooked,” nothing apologizing for the churches.

Re: Apple defeats liability for not scanning iCloud for CSAM

#250

Post by Dylan16807 » Tue, Jul 21, 2026, 9:19 PM UTC

RajT88 wrote: post #229

Dylan16807 wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reporting abuse the client was involved in has a compelling reason. That's different from hearing their client saw a picture of the abuse of a total stranger.

> That's different from hearing their client saw a picture of the abuse of a total stranger. I get it, actually. It's totally possible the picture in question was not known to authorities prior. That's called due diligence to look into it. Adults not looking into things or following up on things are how the system fails children if you read some accounts of people who were abused by their guardians. Horrifying stuff.

It could theoretically help to flag those images. But that kind of submission should be anonymous. It shouldn't ruin the ability for someone to get therapy.

Mandatory reporting makes sense for situations you are connected to. And even then there's presumably good reasons not everyone is a mandatory reporter. This goes way beyond that, mandatory reporting once removed for someone that doesn't know a single person involved.

Hell, reporting someone for that doesn't even guarantee the images get looked into! If they didn't save history they're probably not feeling like going back to the site to demonstrate. Similar if it was sent against their will and they deleted it right away.