Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

theconversation.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

121–130 of 164 posts

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#121

Post by [deleted] »

left-struck wrote: post #53
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The leukemia is bullshit, though. The numbers are too small to make any kind of definitive statement, or to properly compensate for things like socioeconomic factors - plenty of other potential causes on the rural farms and poor urban neighborhoods where we usually build power lines, after all. This seems like the thing where people use the phrase "there is no evidence of" to imply that something has been disproven…

Basically I just thought the leukaemia claim is quite an extraordinary claim, which requires extraordinary evidence if you’re trying to convince a sensible person of your claim. I know a thing or two about rf, emf and electricity in general and I don’t see why or how these hv wires would cause cancer, or if they did why would it be specifically leukaemia. I’m fully aware though that before we knew about nuclear radia…

[deleted]

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#122

Post by tomxor »

_trampeltier wrote: post #75
mschuster91 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Latency.

Latency for interaction with AI? For something the user use browsers and electron apps. A ping goes around the whole world before your pressed key is visible on the screen.

> A ping goes around the whole world before your pressed key is visible on the screen.

I don't disagree with your sentiment, but as someone who manages infrastructure which is literally on the opposite side of the planet (from me) RTT is long enough to be objectively horrible for anything interactive like typing over SSH. At least 250ms capital to capital for Europe to Oceania + last mile latency makes 300ms a more realistic minimum + actual processing time + client side rendering and it really starts to feel like a half second from the full human perspective... Under ideal conditions.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#123

Post by Aurornis »

9dev wrote: post #48
Animats wrote: post #19

This could work out. We need, for example, ultra-high-voltage DC lines from the US wind belt to areas with real loads. The US wind belt is roughly from the Texas panhandle north to Canada. Plenty of wind, no big power users. But nobody has been able to build lines west to California or east to Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan, where the loads are. This is held up by land acquisition, not technology. China has so…

And why not build data centers where the energy is?

Parent comment didn’t say anything about data centers.

Getting power from the areas with high renewable energy density over to the population centers is a good goal to have.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#124

Post by mapt »

thejokeisonme wrote: post #76
giantg2 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are not silent nor zero emission. These do emit large electromagnetic fields that interfere with some electronics. There are also some studies that show higher risk of childhood leukemia and potentially negative affects to sensitive groups such as people with neurodiverse conditions. They also tend to hum and crackle. At times you will have helicopters doing line work too.

Having zero knowledge about these studies I have high credence they are baloney.

Skeptic here.

Many of them probably are. Individual EMF concerns are often debunked. It is possible but unlikely that all of them are categorically complete nonsense. But let's put them aside for a moment. There are real, known consequences of living next to a data center as implemented.

Coil whine from transformers, in audible and infrasound movement of air, has real known effects, as well as suspected poorly studied effects, on the human head & ear.

The fact that we're just allowing a data center that says "I'm out of power, let me use more", to run four extraordinarily loud, dirty airplane jet turbines at the middle of their property for power generation on an improvised basis. And then when we look at their operation in aerial photos, we see 36 jet turbines.

Any and all non-closed-loop cooling systems are an issue, especially when they pull from potable water or operate in dryland droughts. The ratio of wattage consumed vs water consumed should be instructive here.

The amount of money that is going into these things is obscene, and when they choose to involve local officials it is essentially buying out your local-level democracy wholesale. Total lack of regulation. Town council meeting videos where all of your supposed representatives are under NDA; Extremely blatant corruption that the state doesn't want to touch. Races to the bottom.

These things are designed to run basically as lights-off factories, with little to no local labor involved. While there may be some initial investment in facilities, that will dwindle. When they are simultaneously not paying taxes via assorted individual arrangements, and raising electrical rates, there's very little to recommend them to locals.

We have established no general rules as far as buffers. Large-scale construction in general tends to kill rural watersheds & aquifers in close proximity. The sound issue is real, the EMF issues may have some limited credibility, and well-water is often tragedy of the commons, all of which might be totally mitigated by a half mile or whatever of forest buffer mandated around a data center zoning.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#125

Post by Aurornis »

giantg2 wrote: post #72
bob1029 wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be even more nuanced, the land is not typically taken entirely. The more typical solution is an easement with compensation for the land owner to cover the reduction in utility. Transmission lines are pretty harmless when considering things that could be built instead. Zero emissions, silent, no illumination, etc.

These are not silent nor zero emission. These do emit large electromagnetic fields that interfere with some electronics. There are also some studies that show higher risk of childhood leukemia and potentially negative affects to sensitive groups such as people with neurodiverse conditions. They also tend to hum and crackle. At times you will have helicopters doing line work too.

> potentially negative affects to sensitive groups such as people with neurodiverse conditions

People with neurodiverse conditions are not sensitive to power lines. Hard to believe we’re seeing this type of claim on Hacker News.

Modern high voltage DC transmission lines also don’t have 60Hz emissions because they’re DC.

Anyway, the land where these transmission lines are built usually isn’t running through high population density areas. They’re not slapping a HV transmission line right in the middle of a residential corridor if they can avoid it. It’s going through farm land and empty space if at all possible. It’s a hundred times easier to build the towers in those locations instead of near population centers.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#127

Post by UltraSane »

bob1029 wrote: post #15
usrusr wrote: post #4

Misleading title: they are using eminent domain to seize land for power lines to data centers. (emphasis mine) This is still quite debatable, but so much less so than the implied accusation that they would somehow sell out their privileges as subcontractors for the data centers themselves.

To be even more nuanced, the land is not typically taken entirely. The more typical solution is an easement with compensation for the land owner to cover the reduction in utility. Transmission lines are pretty harmless when considering things that could be built instead. Zero emissions, silent, no illumination, etc.

My parents got $7000 when the state wanted to shave their hill for better visibility around a road curve. They lost a pretty cherry tree.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#128

Post by thinkindie »

high_na_euv wrote: post #88
_trampeltier wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Latency for interaction with AI? For something the user use browsers and electron apps. A ping goes around the whole world before your pressed key is visible on the screen.

Dafuck? No way lol Playing from eu on us servers is not playable >A ping goes around the whole world before your pressed key is visible on the screen.

I don't think that gaming is the focus of the DC discussed in this article. I don't think gaming will ever require a massive buildup as AI nowadays.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#129

Post by infecto »

usrusr wrote: post #4

Misleading title: they are using eminent domain to seize land for power lines to data centers. (emphasis mine) This is still quite debatable, but so much less so than the implied accusation that they would somehow sell out their privileges as subcontractors for the data centers themselves.

Humans are dumb. Near my current city folks are debating a solar farm going up. Far enough out of the way that it has zero impact to anything he city, middle on nowhere farmland. The math was something silly, for farm use it would generate $15,000 or solar farm $1,000,000. I am probably embellishing the number from memory but it was staggering. Folks are still trying to fight it. It’s frustrating.

Farmers don’t like lines because you have to allow for an access road to it and it does not pay anywhere as well as say a cell tower.

Re: When can a power company take your land for data center infrastructure?

#130

Post by malfist »

Animats wrote: post #19

This could work out. We need, for example, ultra-high-voltage DC lines from the US wind belt to areas with real loads. The US wind belt is roughly from the Texas panhandle north to Canada. Plenty of wind, no big power users. But nobody has been able to build lines west to California or east to Illinois, Indiana, Ohio, and Michigan, where the loads are. This is held up by land acquisition, not technology. China has so…

Why DC lines? AC is by far the better technology for distance transmission.
Post reply on HN