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Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

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121–129 of 129 posts

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#121
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, come on. This is beneath you surely. Where are these "philosophers," this monolithic horde of abstraction-loving pinheads stuck in the 15th century, too benighted to see the Real Truth right under their noses, too stuck in debates over definitions to think practically about application and science?? You have a cartoon version of philosophy in your mind that is in sore need of remediation. These are precisely the…

> Have you read a single volume of philosophy in the last decade? Do you have an opinion on the utility of suicide? But how can you, without having personally committing suicide? Am I getting thorough to you? > You have a cartoon version of philosophy in your mind that is in sore need of remediation. You mean the thesis that philosophers argue for centuries without ever resolving anything? That's hardly controversial…

Yes, I think you've gotten through to me. You're willing to hold strong opinions regarding the core discipline of the Western Tradition in a state of abject ignorance, on the grounds that actually educating yourself on the topic before forming such an opinion is analogous to committing suicide in order to understand suicide.

That's as bizarre a rationale for willful illiteracy as I can think of. You seem content with it, and I wish you well.

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#122

Why "train" philosophers? When I imagine a "trained philosopher" I see a person who uses a lot of smart-sounding quotes but cannot choose between the right saying and the wrong saying. It's all the same to him, a material that he absorbed and now outputs. Challenge philosophers. Confront them. Let them take on each other.

Ok. When I imagine a "trained philosopher," I see someone who has spent a lot of time on studying others ideas, proposing their own ideas and challenging/defending these ideas. Should I imagine what you imagine instead?

No, you don't have you. But for me, "training" is an activity that makes you good at a narrow and specialized work. "Education" makes you able to work within the boundaries of all knowledge in the area. But philosopher is got to break these boundaries so I don't have a word for that.

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#123
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you read a single volume of philosophy in the last decade? Do you have an opinion on the utility of suicide? But how can you, without having personally committing suicide? Am I getting thorough to you? > You have a cartoon version of philosophy in your mind that is in sore need of remediation. You mean the thesis that philosophers argue for centuries without ever resolving anything? That's hardly controversial…

Yes, I think you've gotten through to me. You're willing to hold strong opinions regarding the core discipline of the Western Tradition in a state of abject ignorance, on the grounds that actually educating yourself on the topic before forming such an opinion is analogous to committing suicide in order to understand suicide. That's as bizarre a rationale for willful illiteracy as I can think of. You seem content with…

[deleted]

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#124
post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Have you read a single volume of philosophy in the last decade? Do you have an opinion on the utility of suicide? But how can you, without having personally committing suicide? Am I getting thorough to you? > You have a cartoon version of philosophy in your mind that is in sore need of remediation. You mean the thesis that philosophers argue for centuries without ever resolving anything? That's hardly controversial…

Yes, I think you've gotten through to me. You're willing to hold strong opinions regarding the core discipline of the Western Tradition in a state of abject ignorance, on the grounds that actually educating yourself on the topic before forming such an opinion is analogous to committing suicide in order to understand suicide. That's as bizarre a rationale for willful illiteracy as I can think of. You seem content with…

Your reply suggests that critics of philosophy must necessarily be ignorant. Great depth of thought there.

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science, as the broad quest for knowledge, scientia , is not dogmatic, or at least ideally it is not. But modern science certainly has dogmas, and gladly admits them. Methodological Naturalism is the biggie. It is useful as a kind of provisional phenomenological reduction that brackets some questions and some kinds of answers (formal, teleological, aesthetic), in favor of others (mechanistic, reductionistic). In theo…

I appreciate your responses in this thread, I feel I have learned something from them. I want to make sure I am reading you correctly here: >>>as long as the reduction [of Methodological Naturalism] remains provisional, it has tremendous explanatory power. In practice, it far too often becomes a de facto metaphysic, unwarranted and unproven within its own assumptions. It seems like Karl Popper is saying something ide…

Great question. Instead of trying to reconcile my weak prose with a giant like Popper, I'll instead try to summarize my understanding of him, taken mainly from my reading Objective Knowledge and Conjectures and Refutations. Let me know if this helps.

With Popper it's important to put things in context. He's reacting to the developments in Positivism/Verificationism and the rather famous problems it had. Falsification is related to Methodological Naturalism in that both are provisional hedges against unwarranted leaps within science, the problem of induction in particular (see: Hume and induction), as well as the historic difficulties in establishing the relationship between subject and object -- what I think in my mind and what I know about the world external to my mind (see: well, Hume and Kant).

Popper's view is that science is must be understood as merely conventional, not declarations of objective truth about the state of the world. So, falsification is a way of acknowledging this limitation while establishing a language for moving science forward within its appropriate boundaries. We no longer say a scientific theory is "verified," or even that one "believes" it to be true (Popper doesn't "believe in belief") -- this would imply a direct statement of truth about the world. Rather, we say we have a conjecture that has not been falsified. All of science, as "Objective Knowledge," is really the collection of language in books and articles and journals (what Popper calls "World Three") that contain the most useful conjectures that have been accepted by convention into the community, that have not been falsified.

This is why the idea of "falsifiability" is so important. If something has no criteria by which it can be shown to be false, then it cannot qualify as a candidate for citizenship in World 3.

This works as a provisional, conventional set of boundaries around science and useful guideposts that show the best kind of science as rooted in empirical experience and observation.

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Personally, I see that lukeprog demonstrates an anti-intellectualism when he states, 'Another paper arguing about the definition of "knowledge"? No thanks.'" I see how this criticizes one branch of intellectual thought within one discipline. I don't see how it is anti-intellectual. Luke runs the singularity institute, an organization dedicated to a highly specific and speculative conception of humanity's future (and…

It seems we're defending apples and oranges. I briefly read some parts of Pearl's text you provided. Apart from my having an issue with his approach/tactics to explaining his thoughts, it reminded me of Mill's Methods (1843), which were 'influenced' by Avicenna's Book of Healing (1020). And why should it 'supersede' (do you mean replace or 'is better than'?) previous philosophical thought? What of Al-Ghazali's Delive…

There are no apples and oranges in this conversation. Mistaken epistemology is mistaken. Fruit plays no part in it.

I'm sad that your response to Pearl's ideas is to cite a litany of influences you believe as exposing his ideas as not novel. This is a a pointless activity.

Theories are not equal alternatives. When a complete and clarifying framework is defined, we abandon the mistaken structures of the past. Knowledge does not endlessly bifurcate: unification is our most valuable intellectual activity. Your equivocation among competing alternatives is an exercise of socially attached apologetics.

Causal explanations form the basis of the entirety of western philosophy, from Aristotle's four causes onward. Accuracy is not a matter of taste.

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#127
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where to begin with this? This is naive scientific triumphalism of the first order, utterly illiterate with regards to the philosophical foundations of science, the rigorous and multi-layered debates over the status of scientific statements that have been ongoing for centuries to the present day: from Bacon, Gallileo and Descartes (with deep roots in Lucretius, Plato, Aristotle, Thomas, Epicurus, Heraclitus) through…

> This is naive scientific triumphalism of the first order ... Translation: "Okay, science works. Stop gloating!" > Centuries of debate quelled in a single utterance. Yes, and correct.

Look, I sympathize. Philosophy, as the core discipline of human thought, has established beyond any doubt that there are limits to empirical human inquiry, and scientists don't like that idea. The standard response of scientific cheerleaders like, for instance, Lawrence Krauss, is to simply sniff at the entire enterprise, and assume there must be some problem with "those philosophers," rather than entertain the notion that there may, in fact, be limitations to reason and scientific inquiry.

This is fine. If you're too lazy and content in your own unexamined assumptions to read a few hundred pages of the men who did the hard work that gave you your entire livelihood, it will not affect your ability to do practical research.

But let's be clear about some of the practical implications of that position:

* Science does not need to be rational in any meaningful sense. (Go ahead and try to reinvent that idea without falling ass-backwards into the same problems "those philosophers" have been working through for centuries. Go ahead, I'll wait.)

* It does not need to be consistent within its own assumptions.

* Science is de facto "true", simply by virtue of being practiced by someone who claims to be doing science.

* Since we've now abdicated the rigorous discipline of establishing secure definitions, the notion of empirical science is now free-floating, ad hoc, and vulnerable to redefinition at any turn. The only thing required is for a group of men who call themselves "scientists" who have a different agenda to take control of a majority of significant journals or the community at large and impose their definition by fiat.

Philosophy may seem to be arcane and needlessly obsessed with definitions. And when its obscure language intrudes into the hard work of real empirical research, it can seem to be a giant non sequitur that can be easily ignored, as science moves forward (whatever "forward" means, now that we can't establish what is truly salutary and what is not).

But such willful ignorance not only skirts the fact that it was such philosophical examination of the limits and range of human knowledge that actually established science to begin with, that sort of ignorance sets enormously dangerous precedents, a sort of intellectual stare decisis for the future of human inquiry. It opens the door to sophistry, demagoguery and ultimately pure irrationalism.

History is long, and intellectual tyranny is opportunistic. Whatever integrity and above-board intentions you think scientists can maintain in the long-term, on good will alone and not deep self-awareness of core philosophical discipline is absurdly naive. Without a community committed to rationality (which is what philosophy does even if it only sets up negative limitations that seem unsatisfactory to scientists who want carte blanche to do whatever they want), then the entire discipline in the long term most likely will be taken over by non-rational concerns: commercial, military, governmental or even religious.

Absent the basic language provided by philosophy that can give at least some basic definitions and intellectual rigor for what is and isn't "science" (again, good luck reinventing all that), welcome back to the pre-socratic age of sophistry, demagoguery and a new Dark Ages. Just give it a century or so -- buy hey, you won't be around, so why worry?

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Science, as the broad quest for knowledge, scientia , is not dogmatic, or at least ideally it is not. But modern science certainly has dogmas, and gladly admits them. Methodological Naturalism is the biggie. It is useful as a kind of provisional phenomenological reduction that brackets some questions and some kinds of answers (formal, teleological, aesthetic), in favor of others (mechanistic, reductionistic). In theo…

I appreciate your responses in this thread, I feel I have learned something from them. I want to make sure I am reading you correctly here: >>>as long as the reduction [of Methodological Naturalism] remains provisional, it has tremendous explanatory power. In practice, it far too often becomes a de facto metaphysic, unwarranted and unproven within its own assumptions. It seems like Karl Popper is saying something ide…

>Methodological Naturalism assumes that what humans can observe is the only way to gain more knowledge about the observable AND unobservable world. It is helpful for addressing immediate concerns of the observable world. However, let's not pretend that its usefulness somehow makes it true. Predicting the FUTURE is difficult, so let's hedge our bets in case things start getting weird

The Thomist Philosopher Edward Feser often uses the metaphor of a metal dectector when discussing Methodological Naturalism. It runs roughly like... (paraphrased and typed quickly on IE6 [yes kill me])

"Science acts on the assumption of methodological naturalism and that's okay. It's like a metal detector that only detects metal but dectects it with great accuracy. What is wrong is that many times the method is made into a metaphysic which is philosophically hard to maintain and which simply does not follow from the facts.

That a metal dectector has never detected wood is obvious because the metal detector isn't for detecting word. The Baconian project ignored teleological forces because, per Bacon, such teleology is hard to analyze within a scientific framework. Science has therefore focused on Material and Efficent causation. However, just because a method effectly locates material and efficent causes doesn't mean that other causes don't exist just as a metal dectector not detecting wood does not mean that wood does not exist. Therefore the argument for reductive materialism from the successful, that is treating methodological naturalism as the whole and complete story, is fundementally in error and incomplete."

Re: Train Philosophers with Pearl and Kahneman, not Plato and Kant

#129

So the author argues for some kind of long in the tooth peculiar positivism? Had he studied just some 20th century philosophy and its problems (from positivism to analytic philosophy to post-analytic), he wouldn't make such tiresome arguments.

The thing I find odd is that I've followed Luke for some years and he's remarkably well read on these topics and assuredly know of the complications with this stance. I find his Scientific Narrative argument (Science has solved other problems, why should X be the last to fall?) problematic but he seems to lean heavily on it.
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