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Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#351

Post by LoganDark »

inopinatus wrote: post #344
LoganDark wrote: post #326

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That example kind of illustrates my point though? ML being in an AI book doesn't mean ML is AI, just as being in the dairy section does not make almond milk dairy.

It illustrates that some people can’t distinguish between a useful label by association for the general public, and their own desperate compulsion to litigate hair-splitting category distinctions. Someone who was truly on the ball on this matter might’ve observed that Edinburgh in the 90s was so balkanized by internecine personality conflicts that most research that might later be strictly labelled “machine learning”…

> But I suppose you haven’t heard that, either.

Exactly what do you think my argument is? It's not "I didn't hear of [anything], therefore it doesn't exist / is not admissible". It's roughly "I didn't see machine learning referred to as 'AI' for years, until LLMs happened, at which point most companies that used to say 'machine learning' started calling the same things 'AI'".

You don't have to be snarky about it. I've heard it's okay to not know things. Is that wrong too?

Also:

> desperate compulsion to litigate hair-splitting category distinctions.

All I'm saying is that neither one is a strict subset of the other. Even though AI and ML are incredibly related to the point of even mostly overlapping in practice, they're not the same thing! AI is an outcome and ML is a mechanism. You can use the mechanism to achieve the outcome, or you can use a different mechanism to achieve the outcome, or you can use the mechanism to achieve a different outcome. That's all. If that's a hair-splitting category distinction to you, then so be it.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#352

Post by budsniffer952 »

LoganDark wrote: post #237
granzymes wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The “overlap” is that all machine learning is AI, but not all AI is machine learning.

There are both ML that is not AI, and AI that is not ML. For example, if you pick them manually, decision trees can be AI but not ML. Video game character behavior is a trivial example. Eliza for example is also not ML, but could be called AI. Likewise, there is ML that is not AI. Such is debatable, because you could always argue that using machine-learning on anything results in intelligence. The way I see it, thing…

[flagged]

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#353

Post by budsniffer952 »

LoganDark wrote: post #195
ch4s3 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s machine learning, which people routinely called AI not so long ago.

I never heard people calling machine learning "AI" until large language models made it trivial to market it as such. Like, I remember back when Netflix, for instance, was going around advertising how machine learning (not AI) powers their recommendations.

Yes, because we had the same stupid arguments then: "that's not AI!"

So machine learning became the marketing.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#354

Post by LoganDark »

budsniffer952 wrote: post #353
LoganDark wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never heard people calling machine learning "AI" until large language models made it trivial to market it as such. Like, I remember back when Netflix, for instance, was going around advertising how machine learning (not AI) powers their recommendations.

Yes, because we had the same stupid arguments then: "that's not AI!" So machine learning became the marketing.

What makes them stupid?

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#355

Post by kasey_junk »

budsniffer952 wrote: post #352
LoganDark wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are both ML that is not AI, and AI that is not ML. For example, if you pick them manually, decision trees can be AI but not ML. Video game character behavior is a trivial example. Eliza for example is also not ML, but could be called AI. Likewise, there is ML that is not AI. Such is debatable, because you could always argue that using machine-learning on anything results in intelligence. The way I see it, thing…

[flagged]

I don’t know what the op meant by manually picking but the expert systems of the 80s and case based reasoning systems of the 90s used fairly static decision functions and were explicitly called AI at the time.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#356

Post by fragmede »

LoganDark wrote: post #354
budsniffer952 wrote: post #353

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, because we had the same stupid arguments then: "that's not AI!" So machine learning became the marketing.

What makes them stupid?

It's stupid because there's no formal definition of what counts as AI, so we repeat the same conversation every time. Hence the joke ML is just AI that works.

There's a book from 1995, called Artificial Intelligence: A Modern Approach, by by Stuart Russell and Peter Norvig, which gives the definition "AI is the study of agents that receive percepts from the environment and perform actions." but doesn't define intelligence.

https://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/2nd-ed/preface.html

If we go with that, though, I'd say AI is anything that uses a model to make decisions instead of hand written "if" statements.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#357

Post by LoganDark »

LoganDark wrote: post #251
fragmede wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Machine learning is just what we call AI that works.

Math is just what we call a video game that works. What?

Oh, maybe you were referring to reliability of the system (i.e. in contrast to how LLMs are famously unreliable). Maybe?

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#358

Post by wqaatwt »

ruszki wrote: post #299
AdieuToLogic wrote: post #226

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The “overlap” is that all machine learning is AI ... "All machine learning" is not AI, as k-means clustering and linear regression, amongst others, are very much ML without qualifying as AI algorithms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence As it is taught literally every single AI/machine learning course on the world, machine learning is very much part of AI completely since inception. I don’t completely understand why it is this important for you to argue against this completely defined fact.

[dead]

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#359

Post by Loughla »

soared wrote: post #263
Loughla wrote: post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you still get doctors for primary care? Our local hospital is hiring nothing but nurse practitioners now. They're amazing in a support role, but not equipped as well for primary care roles.

I’d rather have an NP 10 times out of ten for primary care

While they definitely serve a purpose, primary care is not that.

If you present with anything other than healthy and fine, the ones I have had to see are less than helpful.

They simply do not have the depth or breath of training as a doctor. They're very good at executing a plan as part of a care team, and even making changes to that plan based on patient need. But they just simply aren't as good as doctors.

There's a reason they're replacing doctors. . . They're cheaper. That's it.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#360

Post by pydry »

r0m4n0 wrote: post #163
pydry wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

90% of the time when I call a call center I need a human to fix an organisational bug - e.g. faulty billing or some other kind of mixup. AI cannot help with this. If it's to do something normal you could do through the website there was no need for AI - a website or app suffices - provided it isnt terrible. Capital definitely thinks it can save costs here but capital is getting increasingly delusional these days.

The HN crowd is not the usual demographic for call centers. Im willing to generalize a vast majority of callers can find the info they are looking for if they tried a little

Well, yeah. I'm definitely more tolerant of bad web UX than the average boomer.
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