Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

localnewsmatters.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

301–310 of 401 posts

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#301

Post by truncate »

derekdahmer wrote: post #115

I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued. FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehens…

>> It's annoying that we use broad terms to describe a set of technologies that in some ways can be problematic and in another ways are very beneficial. We gotta evaluate each of these as they come rather than talk about blanket bans.

I totally get it. I think few years, if some company said they record and transcribe every meeting/interview they take, it would be concerning. Now, its somewhat a norm for people to use these AI meeting tools which record everything you say and then go back to recording and exactly what people said. I'd call it surveillance than AI

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#302

Post by sensanaty »

abeindoria wrote: post #100

That is surprising. My primary care provider had a different response. Basically he said something in line of "You wouldn't believe how much of a relief it has been. In your last visit, you saw me typing everything you were saying, right? I don't have to. I can listen to you and take very specific notes as necessary as opposed to focusing on both typing and listening to you at the same time. It has bought my stress l…

Having seen the type of insane shit these LLM transcription tools shit out on the regular, I wouldn't trust these tools for even the most mundane note taking in a medical setting, especially if there's a summarization feature.

I've seen summaries that implied the opposite of what was actually said, and even the transcripts themselves often contain egregious errors. I can so easily imagine these tools summarizing "I drink coke often" to "I use cocaine often", as a random simple example. All nuance gets lost, all context gets lost and unless you're vigilant and looking out for these types of errors it's so easy to slip by the cracks.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#304

Post by HappMacDonald »

johnnyanmac wrote: post #220
isityettime wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things like this are (sadly) common (and age-old) problems with automation and computerization. (For a vivid account of this phenomenon, check out the novel _Close to the Machine_, by Ellen Ullman.) As executives and analysts increasingly use the "AI" craze to push automation and computerization (and layoffs) generally , even aside from AI proper, it should not be surprising that the individuals and groups opposing t…

>The lack of precision in language here sucks. It's a feature. Or at least, a perk. If they want to claim this new shiny rock is AI and people buy it, then of course it's in their best interest to keep the black box mysterious. Being subterfuge for muddying the discourse of critique is just a nice side bonus.

But it is only a perk for the scam artists who benefit from that.

Yes, it makes sense that the confusion aligns with their interests, and they are unavoidably a big part of the conversation. But it remains a problem for the non-overlapping group of people who actually value the social contract, and for us finding a solution which helps take one more step to defeat the scammers remains valuable.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#305

Post by delusional »

isityettime wrote: post #190
derekdahmer wrote: post #115

I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued. FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehens…

Things like this are (sadly) common (and age-old) problems with automation and computerization. (For a vivid account of this phenomenon, check out the novel _Close to the Machine_, by Ellen Ullman.) As executives and analysts increasingly use the "AI" craze to push automation and computerization (and layoffs) generally , even aside from AI proper, it should not be surprising that the individuals and groups opposing t…

I am very interested in your reading of Close to the Machine. I read it myself a couple of years ago and found it a wonderful telling of the early days of tech, with overtones of the "technology workplace" that were still very true to this day. I did not pick up on any commentary on automation or computerization, outside of the general critique of bureaucratic systems that alienate you from the outcomes of your labor.

Do you have anything I could read to understand your reading better? I would love to be able to dive back into one of my favorite books with a new lead.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#306

Post by obscurette »

derekdahmer wrote: post #115

I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued. FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehens…

Being close relative for several med and care workers we have discussed it a lot and consensus is that it really depends. For example relying on LLM summaries sounds great until it doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you misunderstand LLM summary or LLM "misunderstands" you – there are real risks involved, and you wouldn't want them to weigh on your conscience if they were to materialize.

Relying on LLM to summarize things for you has one more issue. To outsiders, this seems like a tedious process, but is actually very important part of the thought process. Wording your thoughts and writing these down helps people to discover new aspects of the problem. It's how people learn.

At the moment consensus is that it must not be banned, but also not mandated in any way - people must take responsibility, and they must be able to decide for themselves where and when the LLM use is justified and where it is not.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#307

Post by HappMacDonald »

granzymes wrote: post #205
LoganDark wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's machine learning, which has overlap with AI but is not completely equivalent.

The “overlap” is that all machine learning is AI, but not all AI is machine learning.

> but not all AI is machine learning

I will instead pick at this latter part of your claim. What is an example of something that is AI but that is not ML..?

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#308

Post by red75prime »

obscurette wrote: post #306
derekdahmer wrote: post #115

I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued. FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehens…

Being close relative for several med and care workers we have discussed it a lot and consensus is that it really depends. For example relying on LLM summaries sounds great until it doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you misunderstand LLM summary or LLM "misunderstands" you – there are real risks involved, and you wouldn't want them to weigh on your conscience if they were to materialize. Relying on LLM to summarize t…

> where and when the LLM use is justified and where it is not

while being bombarded with articles like "AI makes things worse", "AI consumes all the water" and the like

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#309

Post by bananaflag »

LoganDark wrote: post #195
ch4s3 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s machine learning, which people routinely called AI not so long ago.

I never heard people calling machine learning "AI" until large language models made it trivial to market it as such. Like, I remember back when Netflix, for instance, was going around advertising how machine learning (not AI) powers their recommendations.

In 2011, I took an AI course at my university and it was all perceptrons and neural networks.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#310

Post by [deleted] »

obscurette wrote: post #306
derekdahmer wrote: post #115

I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued. FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehens…

Being close relative for several med and care workers we have discussed it a lot and consensus is that it really depends. For example relying on LLM summaries sounds great until it doesn't. It doesn't matter whether you misunderstand LLM summary or LLM "misunderstands" you – there are real risks involved, and you wouldn't want them to weigh on your conscience if they were to materialize. Relying on LLM to summarize t…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN