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ICE Flight Monitor Interactive Dashboard

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Re: ICE Flight Monitor Interactive Dashboard

#21

Post by estearum »

Havoc wrote: post #15

Evil as ICE no doubt is, I think the framing as "shuffles" to separate families and undermine due process as the intention is likely wrong even if that's a side-effect. If you had to fill 20 flights going to various countries you'd quickly realizing that the people going to say India are all over the place. So what do you do? You run a hub and spoke model just like airlines do. And that's exactly what the data shows.…

How does that explain ICE moving people to different jurisdictions against explicit judicial orders not to do so, and overwhelmingly to admin-friendly jurisdictions?

This is a very typical strategy of authoritarians. Typical enough to be named by Arendt: "Rule of Nobody."

Re: ICE Flight Monitor Interactive Dashboard

#23

Post by ranger_danger »

trhway wrote: post #19
Havoc wrote: post #15

Evil as ICE no doubt is, I think the framing as "shuffles" to separate families and undermine due process as the intention is likely wrong even if that's a side-effect. If you had to fill 20 flights going to various countries you'd quickly realizing that the people going to say India are all over the place. So what do you do? You run a hub and spoke model just like airlines do. And that's exactly what the data shows.…

You wouldn’t need such massive deportation system and thus optimizing it into hub and spoke if you had due process - most deportations are self deportations people sign under the duress of the conditions ICE put them into, and thus no due process. What we have here is a buildout of the due process violation system not a due process implementation system.

[flagged]

Re: ICE Flight Monitor Interactive Dashboard

#24

Post by mindslight »

tommica wrote: post #8
mindslight wrote: post #3

[flagged]

> It prioritizes the state and nation over the individual, demanding total loyalty to a dictatorial leader, and relying on the violent suppression of opposition, strict social regimentation, and intense militarism. Wasn't Trump elected democratically? Also pretty sure opposition is not violently suppressed, unless they are throwing rocks or blocking roads. Though the police force does have a bit of a hint of militari…

"Wasn't Trump elected democratically?" doesn't address any of the quote you yourself bought. Meanwhile, this regime hits every one of those bullet points. But as I said, if you really don't like the F-word, then you can just say "autocratic authoritarian" instead. The F-word is a convenient simpler term for those of us actually interested in addressing the trend rather than merely quibbling about definitions.

Re: ICE Flight Monitor Interactive Dashboard

#25

Post by mindslight »

MomsAVoxell wrote: post #13
cocacola1 wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or crypto fascist; that’ll have them threatening to sock you in the face if Buckley’s any example.

Or, just identify it as a personality - a facade, a facsimile, a fake being put in place to shield from perceived filth. Anyone is capable of manifesting this personality. Anyone is also capable, of replacing it with something else. Calling someone a fascist tends to lock them in an immutable argument - calling out their fake personality, drops the shield and it turns to dust.

> Anyone is capable of manifesting this personality

Okay, but we have a large segment of the population currently manifesting this to some particular ends, wreaking untold havoc on our country. Do you have anything specific and constructive to say about how to undermine that movement?

Like sure, I'm receptive to the idea that fascists (autocratic authoritarians) don't really like being called fascists (autocratic authoritarians). But it's not like trying to meet the current crop in the middle has been working either. In fact I'd argue it's their own pattern of supporting whomever claims to uncompromisingly represent them, while actually utterly conning them, is exactly how they've gotten themselves into their situation. They seem hopelessly incapable of analyzing policies to foresee the outcomes, meaning that compromise is impossible - one could even propose policies that 100% match their professed desires, but that still wouldn't be good enough without also banging their partisan drum.

So ultimately the way I see it is that the useful idiots still flying their Grump flags in 2026 are never going to be reached regardless of what kid gloves we might use. So we just need to call it what it is so those still sitting on the fence might see what's at stake - including people who may still be assuaging their own conscience with preposterous labels like "conservative".

Re: ICE Flight Monitor Interactive Dashboard

#26

Post by gumby »

ranger_danger wrote: post #23
trhway wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You wouldn’t need such massive deportation system and thus optimizing it into hub and spoke if you had due process - most deportations are self deportations people sign under the duress of the conditions ICE put them into, and thus no due process. What we have here is a buildout of the due process violation system not a due process implementation system.

[flagged]

This was the first link in. Quick web search: CBP claims about 3/4 of deportations were self-directed (CBP was paying $1-3K per self-deportee). This does not include people who simply leave on their own which ICE tells people to do.

https://theworlddata.com/self-deport-statistics-in-us/

Re: ICE Flight Monitor Interactive Dashboard

#27

Post by MomsAVoxell »

mindslight wrote: post #25
MomsAVoxell wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, just identify it as a personality - a facade, a facsimile, a fake being put in place to shield from perceived filth. Anyone is capable of manifesting this personality. Anyone is also capable, of replacing it with something else. Calling someone a fascist tends to lock them in an immutable argument - calling out their fake personality, drops the shield and it turns to dust.

> Anyone is capable of manifesting this personality Okay, but we have a large segment of the population currently manifesting this to some particular ends, wreaking untold havoc on our country. Do you have anything specific and constructive to say about how to undermine that movement? Like sure, I'm receptive to the idea that fascists (autocratic authoritarians) don't really like being called fascists (autocratic aut…

> Do you have anything specific and constructive to say about how to undermine that movement?

Yes. You rub their face in it.

Dignity is the Lynch pin in modern American politics. Everyone demands their own bit of it.

What a "conservative" thinks is dignified versus what a "liberal" thinks is dignified, is of zero consequence when you have actually spotted the totalitarian-authoritarian personality, in either case, or indeed .. in any case.

There is a backlog of rejected dignity in American politics. It starts with war crimes prosecutions, because the public are in very serious danger of letting their war criminals get away with it. Totalitarian-authoritarianism can be spotted by the war crimes, crimes against humanity, and violation of human rights at massive scale.

What the war criminals do to other nation states, they eventually do to their own. ICE is an extension of crimes against humanity already committed, and now refined for local application.

And both sides are doing it.

So, you just simply don't let either side get away with it.

War crimes are the exact opposite of human rights - a government committing war crimes on other states is denying the human rights of its citizens, also.

So, constructively, if you want to do something about all the "useful idiots" consider whether you might be an idiot, or totalitarian, or authoritarian, or none of the above - particularly when it comes to the crimes of the state from which you gain survival.

An easy way to express the solution is to demand that there be no more secret, or unknown, war crimes. In this you will make your own local change, and it'll infect others, too ..

Remember, the wars are the reason for all the local human rights abuses at home. If there weren't a fetid desire to bomb cultures considered inferior into oblivion, the local culture would be being attended to in equitable ways.

"Your streets are ruined because your state profits more from ruining (other nations') streets than building them (locally)."

Re: ICE Flight Monitor Interactive Dashboard

#28

Post by MomsAVoxell »

krapp wrote: post #18
MomsAVoxell wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Fascism is a loaded word that will get completely negated by glib idiocy. Totalitarian-authoritarian personality is more fitting, because in fact as a personality it can arise in any individual - not just those wearing brown shirts and marching around in jackboots, seeking conformity with a clean ideal. Totalitarian-authoritarianism is a meme - a kind of virus, which can be just as easily discarded as it can infiltra…

>Sure, boot out the fascists if you feel that is keeping you un-clean. But in so doing, you will establish your own totalitarian-authoritarian personality. The key is not to resist - it is futile - but rather, instead, replace. The solution to any totalitarian order is simply to build another one, right on top. Oh, that's what's happening here. The only real fascists are the people opposed to fascism. OK. My bad, I d…

Oh, so dramatic, in the lunge towards rejection of an argument you seem to have misunderstood!

Well, look. You don't stop hatred with more hatred. You don't stop war with more war. You don't stop stopping by stopping stopping. It's an endless spiral.

Instead, look at it like this - don't lock horns with the totalitarian-authoritarian circumstance. Investigate and expose the crimes which resulted from it, though. And be relentless about it. Not resistive.

Re: ICE Flight Monitor Interactive Dashboard

#29

Post by cindyllm »

MomsAVoxell wrote: post #28
krapp wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Sure, boot out the fascists if you feel that is keeping you un-clean. But in so doing, you will establish your own totalitarian-authoritarian personality. The key is not to resist - it is futile - but rather, instead, replace. The solution to any totalitarian order is simply to build another one, right on top. Oh, that's what's happening here. The only real fascists are the people opposed to fascism. OK. My bad, I d…

Oh, so dramatic, in the lunge towards rejection of an argument you seem to have misunderstood! Well, look. You don't stop hatred with more hatred. You don't stop war with more war. You don't stop stopping by stopping stopping. It's an endless spiral. Instead, look at it like this - don't lock horns with the totalitarian-authoritarian circumstance. Investigate and expose the crimes which resulted from it, though. And…

[dead]

Re: ICE Flight Monitor Interactive Dashboard

#30

Post by [deleted] »

estearum wrote: post #10
tommica wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It prioritizes the state and nation over the individual, demanding total loyalty to a dictatorial leader, and relying on the violent suppression of opposition, strict social regimentation, and intense militarism. Wasn't Trump elected democratically? Also pretty sure opposition is not violently suppressed, unless they are throwing rocks or blocking roads. Though the police force does have a bit of a hint of militari…

Many dictators were elected democratically. What's the relevance? > Also pretty sure opposition is not violently suppressed, unless they are throwing rocks or blocking roads. Which of these got Alex Pretti killed?

[deleted]
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