Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

localnewsmatters.org

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

271–280 of 401 posts

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#271

Post by bmitc »

nojito wrote: post #33
bmitc wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Kaiser has some of the best healthcare outcomes in the country/world due to their protocols and how good they are in ensuring adherence to them. Where and how is that determined? I.e., any references to back that up? And you can't in one breath say they have the best healthcare but then say their employees' reports of their experience are unreliable.

Not sure if you’re serious but just search the name Kaiser in any research search engine. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8032167/ Their secret sauce is their ability to standardize protocols throughout their entire organization.

Why wouldn't I be serious? And everyone lives in and cares about California.

Plus, a quick Wikipedia glance shows they have a fair share of controversies, including major fines due to poor COVID protocol adherence.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#272

Post by noisy_boy »

AdieuToLogic wrote: post #262
noisy_boy wrote: post #230

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Where has all the empathy gone? And common sense? :( Contrary to popular belief, I don't think common sense has gone away. It just has been deprioritized at the altar of profit. It'll be visible loud and clear the very instant if/when the lives of the assholes chasing profits was on the line.

>> If a human’s performance for 40 plus hours a week can be reduced to a performance score ... >> Where has all the empathy gone? And common sense? :( > Contrary to popular belief, I don't think common sense has gone away. It just has been deprioritized at the altar of profit. Or perhaps it has been left to starve due to apathy and an unrelenting pursuit to reduce the difficult job of leadership into a much simpler o…

> arbitrary numeric values which are defensible

Defensible on account of discharging their relentless duties of generating shareholder value within legal limits... i.e. profit.

The fact that it is done in a lopsided way at the expense of everything else is just sign of societal decline due to deification of money and letting the tiger of capitalism roam without boundaries.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#273

Post by woodson »

kennywinker wrote: post #212
bitwize wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LLMs are statistical learning. GOFAI is symbolic, rules-based stuff, expert systems and that.

There is still a categorical difference between how they are being used. Specifically analytic vs generative. Generative AI (LLMs and image generators) are the ones people have issues with - pretty much nobody cares about ML processing for analysis.

There’s a bit of a grey area, for example speech recognition. Would you classify that as analytic or generative? Whisper and speech LLMs work pretty well, but can completely make up stuff that wasn’t in the audio at all (see e.g. “thank you for watching” transcribed during silence). Other approaches are closer to the acoustic evidence but may make other mistakes (especially wrongly transcribing long tail, low frequency terms). Pick your poison.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#274

Post by ImPostingOnHN »

weard_beard wrote: post #76
ImPostingOnHN wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not asking the customer because you're afraid they'll tell you they're upset is a good indicator that you should do it more, and fix the issues. You can ask the customer enough times that unreasonable customers or surveys are averaged out. A good question might be "why are you upset?"

Isn’t it a running joke at this point that if you do what customers ask instead of focusing on the highest quality of service you get worse outcomes and the customer is still unhappy?

If all your customers are unhappy, then you probably aren't providing the high quality of service you think you're providing. After all, they're the judge, not you.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#275

Post by woodson »

LoganDark wrote: post #195
ch4s3 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s machine learning, which people routinely called AI not so long ago.

I never heard people calling machine learning "AI" until large language models made it trivial to market it as such. Like, I remember back when Netflix, for instance, was going around advertising how machine learning (not AI) powers their recommendations.

For a long time, AI was a bad word that stood for unfulfilled promise. See AI Winter. Hence, researchers strictly avoided the term while still working on learning algorithms, the same that power LLM training.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#276

Post by FloatArtifact »

derekdahmer wrote: post #115

I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued. FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehens…

Consider ambient listening in hospitals. Encounters are recorded then AI creates a summary. Those audio recordings then can be used for any other purpose. Consider the ramifications, A panopticon of metrics derived from AI. Imagine a AI used as a review tool across all ecounters a nurse performed in a year. IA will transform how data is stored in healthcare. It's going to move towards the data lake model storing information in its raw form for post analysis.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#277

Post by pstuart »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #208
pstuart wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On corporate whoredom? Absolutely. My pushback is that now is not the time for both-sides-ism. It needs to be addressed but most voters are poorly informed or vote their emotions and that talking point needs to go in the back pocket for later, if there is one. I get your point, and the other one stating that Democrats are not "the left", but they are the the least worst option that a 2 party system offers. The game i…

"My pushback is that now is not the time for both-sides-ism" Of course, and that line of reasoning has consistently failed at the polls since it was deployed as a readguard attempt to bolster Clinton's failed presidential campaign. Like, how many times does the DNC have to stick a fork in this particular outlet before it becomes transparent that this line of rhetoric simply doesn't produce the desired results? Not on…

Let me try this again.

A two party system is a rigged game. Period.

The Democratic party absolutely needs to be taken to task and none of their bullshit should be tolerated or defended, ever, except one small exception: election day, in the general election -- because we can't fix the government if it's no longer a democracy.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#278

Post by sgarman »

guelo wrote: post #47
nojito wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure if you’re serious but just search the name Kaiser in any research search engine. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8032167/ Their secret sauce is their ability to standardize protocols throughout their entire organization.

Study is from 2000-2013, their care has deteriorated significantly since then. I know because I've been a patient the whole time.

I agree. The last 5 years especially.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#279

Post by ajb »

derekdahmer wrote: post #115

I RFTA and the majority of the complaints are about call center metrics and the pressure to ration care. These are real concerns about misuse of metrics, but not AI. The AI empathy thing was a 2024 pilot that was discontinued. FWIW my wife works for Kaiser and finds a lot of value in the the medical LLM tools available to her. She tells me being able to do live translation, summarize notes, and quickly get comprehens…

I understand the frustration, but it's justifiable for the public to be concerned about AI in general because the novelty of the technology means that boundaries between beneficial and problematic usage is not yet stable and well defined. For existing technologies consensus on that has usually been reached, although it changes over time. In many cases we may not yet have enough information to decide.

Nor is this a trivial decision. AI has the potential to change society and economic relations as profoundly as the industrial revolution, or the invention of the printing press.

These boundaries are also contested, as interests which benefit from a particular application are different from those whose interests are harmed. Society needs to identify which usages have a net benefit.

It also needs to define which usages cause "absolute" harms which is will consider unacceptable regardless of benefits to some parties. Such as, potentially, reductions in personal autonomy, increased leverage or dominance by government or private interests.

Not only that, but data and models which were collected/ built for one purpose can easily be adapted for others.

This is also basically now happening all at once in many domains.

In short, you can expect there to be tension over these boundaries for some time. It's not realistic to expect that others will agree with your personal perception of which applications are "obviously" unproblematic.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#280

Post by thaumasiotes »

techpression wrote: post #221
LoganDark wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You must be thinking of a different machine learning. All the on-device machine learning, backend machine learning, OCR, etc. was all called "machine learning" before LLMs. Yes, the field of artificial intelligence still existed, often used machine learning, and called the result "AI". But Apple would call keyboard prediction machine learning. Microsoft would call OCR machine learning. YouTube called machine transcri…

Thank you. I was starting to think the history revision was almost true, but your recollection is very much in sync with my own. Everything was machine learning, nobody talked about AI unless it was for research, now marketing has changed that, unfortunately.

> Everything was machine learning, nobody talked about AI unless it was for research

Machine learning was AI. The specific wording was a branding choice, because "AI" was a deeply stigmatized brand. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AI_winter ) But there was not a conceptual division.

There's a close analogue to how modern genetic researchers are happy to tell you that your genome is not informative as to your "race", but it is informative as to your "ancestry".

Post reply on HN