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Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

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Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#101

Post by insane_dreamer »

forgetfreeman wrote: post #91
datsci_est_2015 wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Increasingly true in Trump’s America. It’s somewhat the point of democracy to maintain a limit on rent seekers’ and wealth extractors’ power on the political process. It should come as no surprise that the individuals who have grifted and extorted their way into power are also fiercely antidemocratic. The xenophobes and bigots that have hitched their wagons are equally deplorable.

I'ma keep it creamy with you, both parties have had the kind of political majority required to clamp down on the corporatization of our society, and neither have so much as paid lip service to doing so. You want to be mad at the current administration by all means there's fertile ground, but don't waste anyone's time blaming them for a situation that's been decades in the making with both major political parties push…

sure, US political parties have been largely pro big-biz

but if you can't see the stark difference in pro-mega-corp policies and blatant pay-to-play corruption in the last 1.5 yrs with the previous 4 years, you're clearly not paying attention

the fact that BigCorp couldn't wait to get rid of Lina Khan, and found a willing ally in Trump, is just one tiny example

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#102

Post by AlotOfReading »

BeetleB wrote: post #56
lostlogin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how exactly would you evaluate how well they show empathy? How would you want yours rated? By someone you have communicated with, or some data centre somewhere?

By a knowledgeable/skilled person who listens to the call. (Which the AI solution provides). I suppose you could do that with the survey as well. It'd be an interesting study to see which is more reliable.

   By a knowledgeable/skilled person who listens to the call. (Which the AI solution provides).
Can you point me to the information you evidently have about which models Kaiser is using? All I can find is that they're using innovaccer, which can use any of anthropic, openai, and meta models on AWS or azure. Even their published papers don't seem to specify a particular model or capability level, just "AI". For all we know it's a gpt mini or similarly cost-effective model that has the context awareness of a Labrador hearing the word "walk".

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#103

Post by caturopath »

apercu wrote: post #25

Maybe healthcare shouldn’t be primarily for profit?

I'm not sure the for-profit approach is exactly what's to blame. HMOs like Kaiser are legally forced to spend a certain fraction (80% percent for the worst case, more for large group plans) of their premium revenue on medical services. They can't save and pocket the money like a traditional for-profit enterprise.

This doesn't seem like a money-saving measure exactly. The main AIs the article talks about is making sure nurses on their nurses' lines aren't being assholes. I guess this used to be spot checked before so you save on that? Maybe? It seems like they are trying to solve the problem of some of their nurses staffing their nurses' line not treating their patients the way they're supposed to.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#104

Post by fhub »

There is an unfortunate cycle that has been playing out this year in USA. Insurance companies are arming up with AI to deny billing codes charged by providers. Providers are arming up with AI to listen in on provider-patient sessions to prove the billing codes are legit (And teach providers to use keywords in session).

The loser, as always, is the patient's quality of care.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#105

Post by xmprt »

abeindoria wrote: post #100

That is surprising. My primary care provider had a different response. Basically he said something in line of "You wouldn't believe how much of a relief it has been. In your last visit, you saw me typing everything you were saying, right? I don't have to. I can listen to you and take very specific notes as necessary as opposed to focusing on both typing and listening to you at the same time. It has bought my stress l…

Nursing and PCP are very different jobs. Ones a lot more cognitive than the other whereas the other involves actually doing/executing on a plan. I can see how AI would help reduce the cognitive burden while actually increase stress on the execution side.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#106

Post by caturopath »

14 wrote: post #6

I would love to learn the cost of the AI versus how many new workers they could afford to hire and get more calls done. But I assume the end goal will be full replacement of human workers once the AI has had enough time to learn the job.

The article doesn't seem to be about replacing nurses staffing their phones with AI. It seems to be about making sure the care they're providing is what the company wants.

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#107

Post by insane_dreamer »

the more I read about how AI is being used, the more I'm coming to the conclusion that despite me personally find it quite useful in my work, and even my personal life to some extent, it is a net negative to society as a whole, and if the choice is between zero AI or the AI that is being deployed, we'd be better out without it

what significant improvements to society or humanity have come about as direct result of AI, that wouldn't have been achieved without it? faster protein folding is the only one I can think of and that more a matter of "faster" than "impossible without AI"

I think at some point there's going to be some version of the Butlerian Jihad

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#108

Post by lostlogin »

BeetleB wrote: post #56
lostlogin wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> how exactly would you evaluate how well they show empathy? How would you want yours rated? By someone you have communicated with, or some data centre somewhere?

By a knowledgeable/skilled person who listens to the call. (Which the AI solution provides). I suppose you could do that with the survey as well. It'd be an interesting study to see which is more reliable.

> By a knowledgeable/skilled person who listens to the call. (Which the AI solution provides).

Are you saying that the AI is the same as a knowledgable/skilled person?

Re: Kaiser nurses say AI, surveillance are making their jobs and patient care worse

#109

Post by insane_dreamer »

9x39 wrote: post #74

It sucks because AI reduces call center costs in many toil tasks very effectively, regardless of whether you want to help or dissuade customers - it's just well-suited to the task and it's going to accelerate. It's a win for capital and the technology implementers, even if it's a loser for the call center employees and callers. Some of the tech is pretty scary. One big vendor's solution [0] can provide not just AI ag…

so far, almost always when I get an AI responder I find it useless and basically try to get to a human as quickly as possible

if it was easy enough for an AI responder to solve I would have solved it myself

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