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Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

ft.com

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Re: Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

#131

Post by JumpCrisscross »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #127
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> it hasn't been determined yet that they have Legally, no. Reasonably, for purposes of discussion, I think it has. The “LOL” dumbfuck who airlifted files into OpenAI isn’t particularly ambiguous [1]. [1] https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-11/openai-en...

It is ambiguous still at this stage though. There's no proof he used this info at his job or that he was directed to take it by anyone (he may have thought it helpful to his career in a way OpenAI never asked for or even invited).

> There's no proof he used this info at his job

LOL Liu hasn’t—to my knowledge—been fired. When OpenAI was notified of his conduct, they didn’t confidentially settle. Instead, OpenAI’s legal went cold on Apple.

It’s not legally certain. But you really have to stretch the facts to make this seem ambiguous.

Re: Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

#132

Post by marklar423 »

LatencyKills wrote: post #98
deepwoods wrote: post #8

FT frames this as some aggressive escalation tactic, but document retention letters are extremely standard practice. At this point they're basically a formality, as any former Apple employee at OpenAI really ought to know by now that they could get dragged into this. Hold letters can be aggressive if you send them before you've even filed a complaint, but if anything, Apple is late to the party with these.

Something similar happened to me when I left Microsoft for Apple (I moved from the Visual Studio team to the Xcode team). MS spent six months trying to prove I'd taken "industry secrets" with me. I hadn't. The entire thing felt like a personal attack and was extremely stressful. It sounds like, in this case, Apple has hard proof that documents were stolen.

Did Apple help defend you against those claims during the six months?

Re: Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

#133

Post by JumpCrisscross »

Danox wrote: post #128
deepwoods wrote: post #8

FT frames this as some aggressive escalation tactic, but document retention letters are extremely standard practice. At this point they're basically a formality, as any former Apple employee at OpenAI really ought to know by now that they could get dragged into this. Hold letters can be aggressive if you send them before you've even filed a complaint, but if anything, Apple is late to the party with these.

They’re not late to the IPO party, which was postponed by OpenAI, It may turn out that that was a mistake. OpenAI probably should’ve gone ahead, particularly in light of the pending court case.

> They’re not late to the IPO party, which was postponed by OpenAI, It may turn out that that was a mistake

Isn’t that precisely what being late to the party means? You should have showed earlier?

Re: Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

#134

Post by bayindirh »

LatencyKills wrote: post #98
deepwoods wrote: post #8

FT frames this as some aggressive escalation tactic, but document retention letters are extremely standard practice. At this point they're basically a formality, as any former Apple employee at OpenAI really ought to know by now that they could get dragged into this. Hold letters can be aggressive if you send them before you've even filed a complaint, but if anything, Apple is late to the party with these.

Something similar happened to me when I left Microsoft for Apple (I moved from the Visual Studio team to the Xcode team). MS spent six months trying to prove I'd taken "industry secrets" with me. I hadn't. The entire thing felt like a personal attack and was extremely stressful. It sounds like, in this case, Apple has hard proof that documents were stolen.

> It sounds like, in this case, Apple has hard proof that documents were stolen.

I believe some articles mentioned about employees bragging to their former colleagues about accessing documents. Also I believe they lied to Apple about being employed elsewhere so they can continue using their access and hardware, etc.

If these are correct, the whole OpenAI playbook is very dirty, and I won't pity them a bit.

Re: Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

#135

Post by delusional »

Zigurd wrote: post #100

Everybody wants a platform but nobody wants to spend what it takes to make a platform. That includes things like Windows Phone, Fire Phone, all the glasses, Humane, etc. As much as everybody hates on OpenAI for chaotic management, they did buy Jony Ive and are presumably giving him everything he wants to build a platform for them. Even though it probably only buys them a 20% chance of success, they haven't doomed the…

> Everybody wants a platform but nobody wants to spend what it takes to make a platform.

Ahistoric jibber jabber. Microsoft gave it their very best shot with Windows Phone. Facebook renamed the entire company to make VR happen. These companies have shoved everything they got into making these platforms, and their fate would not have been different if they had been given another billion.

Platforms are hard to make, and wanting it bad enough is not enough to make one.

Stealing from the one company that has managed to court success makes a lot of sense. They are the only company with any successful experience.

Re: Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

#136

Post by JumpCrisscross »

bellowsgulch wrote: post #119
Zigurd wrote: post #100

Everybody wants a platform but nobody wants to spend what it takes to make a platform. That includes things like Windows Phone, Fire Phone, all the glasses, Humane, etc. As much as everybody hates on OpenAI for chaotic management, they did buy Jony Ive and are presumably giving him everything he wants to build a platform for them. Even though it probably only buys them a 20% chance of success, they haven't doomed the…

Yes, but how do we know specific manufacturing processes weren’t in employee contracts like, “If you leave Apple you can’t utilize the invisible weld process invented here for the iMac.” I mean regardless of whether it’s a trade secret, you’re going to know how to do specific things that can’t be protected against copying. There are no practical laws against understanding the laws of physics, chemistry, and metallurg…

> There are no practical laws against understanding the laws of physics, chemistry, and metallurgy

Except there are. It’s why clean-room design [1] is a thing.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clean-room_design

Re: Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

#137

Post by wildzzz »

elicash wrote: post #87
deepwoods wrote: post #8

FT frames this as some aggressive escalation tactic, but document retention letters are extremely standard practice. At this point they're basically a formality, as any former Apple employee at OpenAI really ought to know by now that they could get dragged into this. Hold letters can be aggressive if you send them before you've even filed a complaint, but if anything, Apple is late to the party with these.

I'm not a lawyer, but I would also guess they need to "flip" these folks against OpenAI and get them to cooperate in the lawsuit against the actual folks with big pockets. I think they're essentially alleging a conspiracy by OpenAI and they need as many examples as possible to make the case that this was a pattern and standard practice, not just one or two idiots acting on their own. So if I'm a former Apple employee…

You shouldn't ever willingly give up information to a plaintiff if it could implicate you. If the information exists, it's going to come out in discovery. Admitting to theft of trade secrets is probably not going to help you, it's not like the cops offering you immunity for turning state's witness.

You talk to a lawyer and do what they say, not what Apple demands of you. No one but a judge can demand anything of you.

Re: Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

#138

Post by Danox »

aprilthird2021 wrote: post #120
martinky24 wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They literally do have hard evidence. They have records of an employee (Chang Liu) who left for OpenAI copying dozens and dozens of files off of their server after he left.

That's not enough though. He could have been acting rogue or for some other reason. That alone won't win in court

Among 40 ex Apple employees come on at least five or six of them probably crossed the line in their enthusiasm to get the big bucks.

If it was a small number, four or five total, maybe, but not 40.

Re: Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

#139

Post by browningstreet »

user43928 wrote: post #111
Forgeties79 wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The accusations are incredibly clear/defined (and serious!) and have a very simple burden of proof. These things either happened or they didn’t, and they have material evidence or they don’t. It’s incredibly unlikely that they filed such big, concrete accusations without concrete proof to back them up. And while I am far from an Apple fan boy, yes a lot of big corporations file frivolous lawsuits but Apple typically…

I do not know a lot about Apple's litigation against other companies, but Apple did file numerous largely unsuccessful challenges to the EU's DMA.

You see how that’s an entirely different kind of legal action, right? It’s a resistance to regulation, which is entirely different than this accusation of malfeasance.

Re: Apple targets dozens of OpenAI employees with legal letters

#140

Post by Danox »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #89
doctaj wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to be clear, these are letters to individuals about the existing lawsuit with OpenAI, not new lawsuits against individuals.

> these are letters to individuals about the existing lawsuit with OpenAI, not new lawsuits against individuals My guess is these employees weren’t chosen randomly. If they refuse to coöperate with Apple, they’ll get personally sued as well. And the reality of the matter is, given Altman’s public persona and reputation, there is a good chance an AG somewhere starts looking at whether these folks broke any laws.

They will find out what Altman really cares about, my guess at this point, he only cares about the impending IPO throwing baggage overboard (new hires), probably won’t be a problem in the end.
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