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Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

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Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#791

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey Simon, I noticed one thing all LLMs are currently pretty bad at and maybe we could create a benchmark from it. Let an LLM play the role of a dungeon master and tell it to strictly stay in the script/story and only allow realistic player actions. You will notice that they are easily brought off track. E.g. - Tell the LLM that you as a player noticed a strange glow in an NPCs eyes -> the NPC becomes an enemy. - In…

This is a known and solved problem. Such a test is pointless for a general-purpose model, because like most people you're using multiturn chats in a naive way, fighting the default finetuning that is done intentionally. 1. You're sending your in-character inputs to an instruction-tuned model under the user role, in a multiturn chat. It's biased to treat these inputs as instructions and this behavior will show itself…

> This will break the rigid instruction-tuning structure

Well, this is something one might naively hope for, unfortunately it only works to a certain extent.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#794

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a known and solved problem. Such a test is pointless for a general-purpose model, because like most people you're using multiturn chats in a naive way, fighting the default finetuning that is done intentionally. 1. You're sending your in-character inputs to an instruction-tuned model under the user role, in a multiturn chat. It's biased to treat these inputs as instructions and this behavior will show itself…

> This will break the rigid instruction-tuning structure Well, this is something one might naively hope for, unfortunately it only works to a certain extent.

Can you elaborate? Where does the structure come from in this case? The model can't even see the boundaries of the reply (it's started with a prefill and stopped with a custom stopping string).

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#795

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Distillation is not an attack. It simply a way to train a model. Not doing it when you are behind is akin to snatching defeat from the jaws of victory.

It is an attack at a sufficient level of sophisticated analysis. If you destroy the game theoretic first mover advantage, then you destroy the economic incentive to improve things.

Be that as it may, it would seem absurd if we start calling distillation out as antagonistic, but don't do the same for the SOTA models being trained on human-created data.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#796
post #111

Pelican: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht... - rendered via the OpenRouter API: https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 95 input, 16,658 output = 25 cents! https://www.llm-prices.com/#it=95&ot=16658&ic=3&oc=15 (13,241 of those were reasoning tokens.) I think that's the most expensive pelican I've rendered through a Chinese model so far.

Hey Simon, I noticed one thing all LLMs are currently pretty bad at and maybe we could create a benchmark from it. Let an LLM play the role of a dungeon master and tell it to strictly stay in the script/story and only allow realistic player actions. You will notice that they are easily brought off track. E.g. - Tell the LLM that you as a player noticed a strange glow in an NPCs eyes -> the NPC becomes an enemy. - In…

This is really interesting. While I know others have posted about fixes I think it’s a very useful thing to see regardless about how well they can follow initial directions and understand what should happen.

I think you could create an interesting benchmark for this, you could likely have models trying to to derail it and another scoring. Detecting when it’s happened shouldn’t be too complex for a model. I understand why LLMs do this, but ideally they wouldn’t.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#797

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey Simon, I noticed one thing all LLMs are currently pretty bad at and maybe we could create a benchmark from it. Let an LLM play the role of a dungeon master and tell it to strictly stay in the script/story and only allow realistic player actions. You will notice that they are easily brought off track. E.g. - Tell the LLM that you as a player noticed a strange glow in an NPCs eyes -> the NPC becomes an enemy. - In…

An approach I like to help solving this is antagonistic or review agents. The first agent decides that eye glows turn NPCs into enemies, the second agent is fully dedicated to deciding if that is valid. If the review fails, it leaves notes and the original agent tries again.

This is also the best approach I've found thus far when I'm seeing how well LLMs can form narrative content.

I don't frame its prompt as antagonistic though - I've found in the past (with weaker models, so YMMV) that this can be overly officious, sometimes blocking more creative outputs that you'd want to retain.

The structure I've found that works best is to have six or seven agents chained, each roughly mimicking a part of the mind, or a role in film production. Broadly:

- A high-temp "Id" agent, tuned to output only vaguely related noise. This really helps creativity.

- An "Ego" agent, who receives the "Id" noise and is then given the initial response task.

- A low-temp "Super-Ego" or "script supervisor" agent, who can grep back across longer contexts to check detail, and is asked to ensure that the initial response is within narrative reason. Not telling it that one role of the dialogue was "user" and one was "assistant" really helps with it not siding with the user.

- A "continuity editor" agent, who is explicitly tasked with world and character lore-checking, building and updating character & world MD docs, etc.

- A "prose editor" agent, whose sole task is to ensure it's tonally in-line with initial guidelines.

You can add more as needed, depending on what is important to you.

I think expecting competent narrative from a single model is a big ask. When writing and telling or performing a story, you have to engage several different parts of the brain, with very different tasks. The creative part of the brain has to have lots of bad ideas in it to surface a compelling idea; the parts dealing with immersion and/or realism have to incredibly restrained.

The Id agent is very important. By appending 100 tokens of noise to a prompt asking: "Write a short story about [subject]", then asking an LLM to blindly score the short stories generated across a range of creativity metrics (such as they can exist!) I personally saw a ~40% score increase vs control over 3k short stories.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#798

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hahaha but this is just a very permissive DM'ing style! Valid for when running a game for children, for example ;-)

Not just for children, many "narrative style" TTRPGs encourage exactly stuff like this. If the item is not majorly important (a sausage), then you can just assume you have it on you (though a GM might want you to do a short explanation why you have a sausage with you).

It does depend on what they’ve introduced though, the player saying they noticed an npc has glowing eyes doesn’t seem like quite the right split (caveat - of course always do whatever seems fun, fun is the point).

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#799
post #111

Pelican: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht... - rendered via the OpenRouter API: https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 95 input, 16,658 output = 25 cents! https://www.llm-prices.com/#it=95&ot=16658&ic=3&oc=15 (13,241 of those were reasoning tokens.) I think that's the most expensive pelican I've rendered through a Chinese model so far.

Hey Simon, I noticed one thing all LLMs are currently pretty bad at and maybe we could create a benchmark from it. Let an LLM play the role of a dungeon master and tell it to strictly stay in the script/story and only allow realistic player actions. You will notice that they are easily brought off track. E.g. - Tell the LLM that you as a player noticed a strange glow in an NPCs eyes -> the NPC becomes an enemy. - In…

I think it's a really interesting space, because it feels like the answer to what a DM does in context is on a spectrum - as in, their decisions on what is valid/invalid is not pure game engine analysis (Nb1 is illegal, disallow) and it's not pure improv (work the story with a "yes, and…" approach).

Instead it's very context dependent - the DM might accept a player saying "I put a sausage in the NPC's mouth" if the player is in a tavern having his dinner, even if it was never explicitly stated that he's eating sausages. It's a judgement call as to whether the DM thinks this particular bit of improv will move the story in an interesting direction, even if they haven't written it upfront plus an attempt at balancing that magicking up an item out of thin air isn't conferring an unfair advantage.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#800
post #321

Kimi K3 blog is up: https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3 2.8T param open model, 1M context, native vision. Weights releasing by July 27 with technical report. Launching with max thinking effort by default; low/high effort modes coming in future updates.

These benchmark numbers are insane. The days when China was 6 months behind are over? How are they doing this with so much less resources than the US??? I have so much respect for the researchers there

Limited resources likely force you to think and optimize differently.
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