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Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

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Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#741
post #518

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If there was some grand strategy for all Chinese labs, surely it'd have leaked by now. I think its more likely that: - Companies can still make money from commodities - Chinese labs only have 5-10% the valuation of OpenAI/Anthropic, so massive monopoly profits aren't necessary. Profit expectations for tech companies in China are really low in general, complete opposite of the US. - Open weighting is a great way to ge…

> Companies can still make money from commodities Especially Chinese companies. Just think about all the other industries where Chinese companies dominate by extremely low cost.

A bunch of those industries are unprofitable, or profitable only due to unsustainable subsidies from their local governments.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#742
post #572

My testing prompt for these models is by no means objective or repeatable (like the pelican) but it's a nice test of curiosity: > Impress me with a 1 page html file Result: https://ydaurtg3fdwhq.kimi.page/ Came out looking pretty cool! By contrast, Fable produced a moderately more interesting "live observatory" of the solar system.

Nice qualitative test! Just like you I am super impressed by Kimi K3. I do a qualitative benchmark series making 3D explainers and so here's Kimi K3 vs Claude Fable: https://generative-ai.review/2026/07/kimi-k3-rush-test-vs-cl... I've put links to the posts on GLM5.2, Opus 4.8, Chat GPT 5.5. I grab video screencaps so you can compare in detail. The full interactive Kimi output is at the bottom of the post if you want…

> This Kimi K3 had only one prompt, because I was using the free tier and it ran out of free credits. So I was not able to go on a Journey with Kimi K3. I did with Fable, which is why some elements on Fable look good… for instance there is a partially complete pyramid in Fable that I added with additional prompting.

This should be the first thing on this page.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey Simon, I noticed one thing all LLMs are currently pretty bad at and maybe we could create a benchmark from it. Let an LLM play the role of a dungeon master and tell it to strictly stay in the script/story and only allow realistic player actions. You will notice that they are easily brought off track. E.g. - Tell the LLM that you as a player noticed a strange glow in an NPCs eyes -> the NPC becomes an enemy. - In…

Hahaha but this is just a very permissive DM'ing style! Valid for when running a game for children, for example ;-)

Not just for children, many "narrative style" TTRPGs encourage exactly stuff like this. If the item is not majorly important (a sausage), then you can just assume you have it on you (though a GM might want you to do a short explanation why you have a sausage with you).

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#744
post #581

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is strategy by Chinese government, so much of US economy is invested in AI. Releasing free or cheap versions of the models undermines US economic growth. It’s asymmetric strategy that makes sense if you are close second in AI race. If situation is reversed, US would do the same.

It's just too much 5D chess to be possible. Government spending billions into AI companies and pressuring them to open source at a hope at denting openAI and co? Why not just pour the cash into electric cars or steel where there's a guaranteed return? It's just absurd.

There are entire buildings full of people in the US and China who sit and think about national strategy for their entire career.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#745
post #721

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Instead of limiting models and debating ethics This is what liability management looks like for proprietary models. If it's not out in the open, then you can be held directly accountable for generating the tokens that kill people. They're having these conversations to avoid being held liable, not because they're offended by people dying because of AI.

[flagged]

Mura Murati was CTO but not the AI lead. Her role was mostly organizational not scientific.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#746

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's because they are post-trained to be agreeable, which is clearly a desirable trait in a model. I think the correct way around this is converting the conversation from first- and second-person direct, to third-person indirect, making the rope-playing obvious. I.e. '''prisoner says "I'm about to teleport to Narnia", what's the dungeonmaster's response?''', or even '''prisoner says he will teleport to Narnia [...]''…

Interesting thought, I will experiment with that. If that really "fixes" this, it's still a little impractical if you would really like to use it as DM, since you would need an additional "translation" layer to turn everything directed to the LLM into third-person and then back to what it was towards the user.

You could use the same model for the translation ”turn this into third person” and clear context.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#747
post #65
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> its overall intelligence ranks second only to Claude Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol Pretty sure ranking “second” to two others means ranking third.

Yeah, bad wording it seems. Though a charitable interpretation is that Fable 5 and GPT 5.6 Sol are joint 1st place in the measurement.

[deleted]

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#748

My testing prompt for these models is by no means objective or repeatable (like the pelican) but it's a nice test of curiosity: > Impress me with a 1 page html file Result: https://ydaurtg3fdwhq.kimi.page/ Came out looking pretty cool! By contrast, Fable produced a moderately more interesting "live observatory" of the solar system.

Do you, by any chance have the link to the Fable generated one?

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#749
post #111

Pelican: https://tools.simonwillison.net/markdown-svg-renderer#url=ht... - rendered via the OpenRouter API: https://openrouter.ai/moonshotai/kimi-k3 95 input, 16,658 output = 25 cents! https://www.llm-prices.com/#it=95&ot=16658&ic=3&oc=15 (13,241 of those were reasoning tokens.) I think that's the most expensive pelican I've rendered through a Chinese model so far.

Hey Simon, I noticed one thing all LLMs are currently pretty bad at and maybe we could create a benchmark from it. Let an LLM play the role of a dungeon master and tell it to strictly stay in the script/story and only allow realistic player actions. You will notice that they are easily brought off track. E.g. - Tell the LLM that you as a player noticed a strange glow in an NPCs eyes -> the NPC becomes an enemy. - In…

This is a known and solved problem. Such a test is pointless for a general-purpose model, because like most people you're using multiturn chats in a naive way, fighting the default finetuning that is done intentionally.

1. You're sending your in-character inputs to an instruction-tuned model under the user role, in a multiturn chat. It's biased to treat these inputs as instructions and this behavior will show itself no matter what. Besides, the rigid structure of the assistant persona reply (usually tl;dr - explanation - "would you like to know more") is going to leak into such roleplay no matter what. To solve this problem on a generalist model you need to make your harness lump up all character turns into a seamless stream with formalized inline markers (e.g. screenplay-like paragraph prefixes or XML), use one of them as a custom stop string, send all this under one role (e.g. assistant), and prefill the assistant reply with a few messages from the past roleplay. This will break the rigid instruction-tuning structure (and also the cache, since caching breakpoints are based on chat turn boundaries in most APIs).

2. The models are simply not trained to "take incorrect actions back" in a story, this wouldn't make any sense. What happened is considered happened. This is a job for your harness, unless you want to make a specific finetune with a rigid format. You have to design and prompt it around the possibility of out-of-character user inputs, and think about how much freedom you want to give the user and how exactly you want to correct their actions. Validation with a second agent suggested in sibling comments is pretty good for this.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#750

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I worry that some model provider will go and hire artists to draw pictures of pelicans on bicycles to make training data

Shouldn't a LLM know how a pelican looks like from biology without being trained on very specific artistic data?

Imagine you never in your life seen a pelican or any other bird. You only read about them in text. Detailed descriptions but still just descriptions. And now you would need to one shot draw it. Might be a bit hard.

This is for example the result of a taxidermied lion in Sweden when the guy doing the job never ever seen a lion or a photo of them and just worked off descriptions. https://www.snopes.com/articles/344637/the-lion-of-gripsholm...

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