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Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

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Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#251

Post by semiquaver »

leecommamichael wrote: post #47
dghlsakjg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tokenizers also matter. Anthropics tokenizers will encode the same piece of text at a way higher token count than OpenAi, for example. That said, Kimi is competing against GLM in my mind, and GLM 5.2 is less than 1/3 the price.

Tokenizers define the alphabet on which the language model is trained. I don't want people to get the impression it's a module which can be swapped out or modified on its own. Alphabet size is a design consideration related to correctly encoding the training data.

I’ve been struggling to understand the reason for the newer apparently less efficient Anthropic token encoding. If all inputs are less efficient in this encoding, why does it exist? Has Anthropic released any information that would convincingly show it was anything other than a stealth price hike? Please don’t respond if you are speculating.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#252

Post by Calazon »

krackers wrote: post #244
paxys wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> its overall intelligence ranks second only to Claude Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol Pretty sure ranking “second” to two others means ranking third.

Not if the others tie for first place.

Still third even then.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#254

Post by [deleted] »

wolttam wrote: post #104

I'm a bit nervous this one isn't going to be open-weights. Any mention of "open" has been struck from the literature for this model (it was present an hour ago). We don't even know active params? At this pricing, I'll be surprised if it's open.

[deleted]

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#255

Post by hedora »

adverbly wrote: post #218
ekojs wrote: post #37

> In our evaluations, Kimi K3 delivers frontier-level performance. Among the models tested, its overall intelligence ranks second only to Claude Fable 5 and GPT-5.6 Sol. For the complete benchmark results, see our tech blog. The full model weights of Kimi K3 will be released in the coming days. More details on the architecture, training, and evaluation will be published together with the Kimi K3 technical report. > K…

> Maybe another DeepSeek moment right here. Surely not... What made DeepSeek disruptive was that the cost was 10X lower. In this case, the cost is about 2X lower the Sol I think? At 2X, you're pretty close to the error margins due to token efficiency etc... I'd say this is "on trend" for open models catching up to frontier labs, but its not a "change in the trend" like DeepSeek was IMO.

DeepSeek didn’t really change any trends though, unless you count the stock market.

It was impressive work, but models were commoditizing and inference costs were dropping rapidly already. They were neither the first nor the last 10x optimization, from what I’ve seen.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#256

Post by lompad »

Levitz wrote: post #226
lompad wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The thing is - as a European, I can choose between plague and cholera. One has mostly been reliable, stayed peaceful towards us and is primarily concerned with their internal matters and the countries right next to it. They have long-term strategy and understanding of win-win situations. The other one keeps threatening to invade/steal Greenland. Keeps waging an economic war against the entire bloc. Positions their pr…

>Keeps waging an economic war against the entire bloc. >Positions their propagandists right in our middle and does the best to influence our elections. >Exports fascism and finances antidemocratic forces. >Supports the genocide in that certain country. >Oh and they don't honor any treaties if they feel like it. I don't know how anyone can really mention any of these when trying to paint a bad picture of anyone as com…

I won't go through everything, but just as an example:

You are not mentioning the greenland situation - why? That's the really big one and the one that made the US much closer to "enemy" than "friend". After all, friends don't threaten to annex your territory.

Regarding propagandists and financing of antidemocratic forces: this refers to a current issue. US is deliberately financing spreading of its ideology in the EU, as they confirmed themselves. [0]

With the genocide, that discussion I'm going to stay clear of, as nobody will be convinced of the other position anyway, too heated. Shouldn't have mentioned it in the first place, as this always leads to flamewars. mb.

Regarding honoring of treaties: let's start with the budapest memorandum - I think that was the first really big one. Then, the 1967 Refugee Protocol which forbids third-country deportations. Then, the UN Framework Convention On Climate Change. Violation of the UN charter, withholding of promised funds. The Convention Against TOrture.

Then all the broken/ignored/overturned trade treaties, all the promises made and not kept - how would anything rely on their word at all anymore?

I could go on for multiple pages. Why do those not count? Why do they have to be "propaganda"?

It is unbelievably difficult being reliant on the US in any way right now. And that's what I'm talking about. Not, which is the "better" country. Reliability and ... well, utility to its partners is the basis of it all. Which right now - compared to china - is rapidly sinking. So where is that ignorance you are speaking of?

[0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20260716141817/https://www.thegu...

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#257

Post by kingleopold »

grommz wrote: post #228

Imagine you're a mid sized company and you can host this model locally. Suddenly there are zero reasons to pay a single red cent to the bloodsucking American AI cartel.

hardware, electricity cost and other extra time consuming deployment, are they joke to you? ROI needs to positive otherwise open models have still BIG COST.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#258

Post by ebri »

behnamoh wrote: post #238
wolttam wrote: post #104

I'm a bit nervous this one isn't going to be open-weights. Any mention of "open" has been struck from the literature for this model (it was present an hour ago). We don't even know active params? At this pricing, I'll be surprised if it's open.

[flagged]

Are you like 90? Sound like my Granddad. He’s not saying anyone owes him anything. Stop being a boomer without a cause.

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#259

Post by GodelNumbering »

natrys wrote: post #227

Some official benchmark numbers posted in Chinese social media (I am sure they will publish an English blogpost later too): https://mp.weixin.qq.com/s/V4xhEIy8xDXSMDPrPkmUAQ Generally looks like a Sol/Fable tier model, better across the board than Opus 4.8. (Edit) English blogpost is up now: https://www.kimi.com/blog/kimi-k3

The link has 6 well-known benchmarks where this beats Fable (out of 14 I counted). If the numbers hold up scrutiny, this is scary good.

Forget about their pricing but the companies that do have means to host such models fully on-prem are also the same companies that are paying tens of millions of $ in inference cost every month, and are by extension the biggest customers of OAI and Anthropic

Re: Kimi K3: Open Frontier Intelligence

#260

Post by LaurensBER »

refulgentis wrote: post #249
zarzavat wrote: post #243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's like reading Anthropic's obituary.

Fable is by Anthropic, and this is too expensive, GLM 5.2 is roughly the same quality at a much cheaper price. (I mantain a client with llama.cpp and 101 models across 14 companies by http)

As much as I like GLM 5.2 it's clearly a step below Opus (or even Fable) for more complicated tasks. I would place it at Opus 4.6/4.7 level.

Having said that, the safety system on Fable makes it an extremely unattractive model. It feels that half of the time you're paying double for Opus level performance.

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