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US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

bbc.com

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Re: US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

#111

Post by gwbas1c »

eesmith wrote: post #57
gwbas1c wrote: post #8

Am I the only person who thinks its odd that my government (US) thinks its can tell me what time to get up and go to bed? Before timezones, "noon" was the point where the sun was the highest in the sky. It seems we should focus on having our timezones be more in line with what "noon" is supposed to be: IE, major population centers should have "noon" close to true noon, with a little more flexibility for rural areas s…

You can get up or go to bed whenever you wish. You can say today's date is 27 Messidor Year CCXXXIV if you wish. The problem is when you want to coordinate events between people following different time conventions. Timezones as we know it started off as a railroad company invention. Does the London/Birmingham train follow London time or Birmingham time? Does the stop in Rugby use Rugby time? DST in the US used to be…

No $#1t, Please re-read my comment

Re: US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

#113

Post by blackfawn »

Nicook wrote: post #65
WarmWash wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse than that, it will pass, people will realize it actually sucks, then they we will go back to the quick and nearly painless "rip off the bandaid" approach.

No it wont. There's already one state in the union that has dipsensed with the silly time changes, Arizona. I've lived there for ~7 years while an adult, or about 20% of my life, now live in a time change state again. Having experienced both I would take the no time change every time. And I have yet to meet anyone who would (small sample size for sure, I'm sure someones done some polling).

Arizona is on permanent standard time, which many seem to prefer over DST or permanent DST. This new law is trying to force permanent DST, which the US actually already signed into law back in 1974 and then repealed it within a year because no one liked it. Also, while permanent standard or DST may work in southern states, it becomes more problematic in northern states, particularly close to the edges of time zones. You could see sunrise as late as 9:30 am in some of these cases with permanent DST.

Re: US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

#114

Post by eesmith »

gwbas1c wrote: post #111
eesmith wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can get up or go to bed whenever you wish. You can say today's date is 27 Messidor Year CCXXXIV if you wish. The problem is when you want to coordinate events between people following different time conventions. Timezones as we know it started off as a railroad company invention. Does the London/Birmingham train follow London time or Birmingham time? Does the stop in Rugby use Rugby time? DST in the US used to be…

No $#1t, Please re-read my comment

I've re-read it 5 times. I do not see what I am supposed to be seeing.

> Am I the only person who thinks its odd

No. Many people have complained. In the TV show "The Bob Newhart Show" we find that Bob Hartley thinks that talking about the then-recent timezone standardization to be a safe topic with his father-in-law, but the latter finds it very odd and irritating.

> that my government (US)

Time standardization started without governments. Would you rather follow local sun time and railroad time and radio/TV station time, all different? Which time do you follow if you want to call your aunt 150 miles west of you?

> that my government (US) thinks its can tell me what time

How are they preventing you from keeping your own time? How are they preventing people from following the Jewish calendar?

OTOH, if you have jury duty at 9am next Monday, you better be there on government time. But note that when I last served on duty, the county was huge, and some people took an hour to drive in. Their home could well be many minutes off court house time. So how do they determine the right time to be there?

> time to get up and go to bed?

The government has never told me what time to get up or go to sleep. I was never in the military or other organization where the government had that much power over me.

> Before timezones, "noon" was the point where the sun was the highest in the sky.

Which ended up being a problem once fast long distance travel became commonplace. So how do you solve that problem?

> It seems we should

Yes, you've expressed an opinion. I responded by pointing out the known consequences should everyone followed it, based on historical practices.

> with a little more flexibility for rural areas so they can stay on the same time as their closest major population center.

I also pointed out how that can happen in a timezone system, by changing ones listed hours of work/school/etc.

Iceland is on UTC+00:00 year-round (Greenwich Mean Time), to stay in synch with much of western Europe, even though that's at least an hour behind local solar time.

So plenty of people disagree with your opinion, and changing their opinion would be hard.

Re: US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

#116

Post by hammock »

ajsnigrutin wrote: post #42
hammock wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree permanent standard time is a better solution. But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway.

> But maybe we change work to 8-4 from 9-5 and might be better that way anyway. Why not change the working hours of stores, and tv programming and other schedules too? In the end, you get the same thing as a clock change, but having to change the times of everything everywhere.

Yes which is why I said permanent standard would be better than permanent daylight

Re: US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

#117

Post by zackmorris »

blackfawn wrote: post #113
Nicook wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it wont. There's already one state in the union that has dipsensed with the silly time changes, Arizona. I've lived there for ~7 years while an adult, or about 20% of my life, now live in a time change state again. Having experienced both I would take the no time change every time. And I have yet to meet anyone who would (small sample size for sure, I'm sure someones done some polling).

Arizona is on permanent standard time, which many seem to prefer over DST or permanent DST. This new law is trying to force permanent DST, which the US actually already signed into law back in 1974 and then repealed it within a year because no one liked it. Also, while permanent standard or DST may work in southern states, it becomes more problematic in northern states, particularly close to the edges of time zones.…

Winter sunrise would be almost 9:20 am where I live in western Idaho:

https://www.ktvb.com/article/news/local/idaho/locking-the-cl...

Our representative Mike Simpson voted for it. He has done some good things compared with our other congressional delegates (Mike Crapo, Jim Risch and Russ Fulcher) who tend to make fly by night committee votes against whatever is popular with the general public, so I don't want to knock him. But he does represent district 2, which is 200 miles to the east and would have a sunrise closer to 9:00 am:

https://ballotpedia.org/Idaho%27s_2nd_Congressional_District

My feeling is that permanent DST is just not gonna fly here. So if it passes, our elected officials will take a lot of flack for it and have to run damage control.

Re: US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

#118

Post by gwbas1c »

eesmith wrote: post #114
gwbas1c wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No $#1t, Please re-read my comment

I've re-read it 5 times. I do not see what I am supposed to be seeing. > Am I the only person who thinks its odd No. Many people have complained. In the TV show "The Bob Newhart Show" we find that Bob Hartley thinks that talking about the then-recent timezone standardization to be a safe topic with his father-in-law, but the latter finds it very odd and irritating. > that my government (US) Time standardization start…

You're making a strawman argument: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

We can have timezones where noon is close to true noon. Where I live, the sun is highest either at 11:30 (Standard) or 12:30 (DST.) Most major cities are southwest, so if we stay on permanent standard, everyone's true noon is going to be within 30 minutes of noon on the clock.

Permanent DST screws things up for the cities that are southwest of me, because then their sun is highest in the sky after 1:00 PM. These cities are very far, either requiring a plane ride or a day-long drive, so it's not a big deal for them to switch to a different timezone.

Make sense? You're going off on strawman rants without understanding what I'm advocating for.

Re: US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

#119

Post by throw0101d »

jcranmer wrote: post #50

Permanent DST sounds good to a lot of people, until they actually experience it. The US went on permanent DST in the 1970s and support plummeted after the first winter in DST (which is why we're not on it anymore). Of course, since it was 50 years ago, that means most people alive in the US don't remember the days of permanent DST. The problem, I think, is that what a lot of people want is they want the sun to set qu…

> The US went on permanent DST in the 1970s and support plummeted after the first winter in DST (which is why we're not on it anymore).

More recently Russia tried pDST and went away from it:

* https://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/01/russia-state-d...

A more southern-lattitude country, Turkey, has stuck with pDST, though some folks don't/didn't like it because of enrichment allegations:

* https://www.turkishminute.com/2024/10/31/permanent-daylight-...

Re: US House of Representatives takes step to make daylight saving time permanent

#120

Post by jjav »

BeetleB wrote: post #76
ghaff wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are aware that at least much of Europe uses a similar system to what the US uses today?

Europe is less than 8% of the world's population. The vast majority of the world uses standard time. It works. No one there pines for permanent daylight time. Europe is wrong 50% of the time. The US[1] will be wrong 100% of the time. It can mostly get away with this because it spans the continent. But still, you're going to deal with the stupidity that crossing the Mexican border you will always have to correct your…

> The vast majority of the world uses standard time.

This doesn't make any sense, "standard" is just an arbitrary choice.

See India for example, single time zone.

Ultimately the dumbest thing is to change the clocks back and forth. Just pick one, stick with it.

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