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House passes bill to enact year-round Daylight Saving Time across the country

cnn.com

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Re: House passes bill to enact year-round Daylight Saving Time across the country

#21

Post by al_borland »

I think saying on one time is better than switching back and forth, but we should really stick to Standard time.

I know people like it to be light out later in the evenings, but they tried this before in the 1970s and it didn't last long[0]. It turns out not only do people not like it to be dark late into the morning, but it also makes it unsafe for kids going to school.

Looking at sunrise and sunset times[1], people will spend a significant portion of the year with dark mornings.

Historically, year-round DST was done to conserve energy during war time and other energy crunches. Standard time seems like the more balanced choice for year-round use... that's probably why it was the standard to begin with. As difficult as these things are to pass, and as disruptive as they are (especially now with software update requirements), getting it right instead of making the same mistakes of the past seems important.

[0] https://washingtonian.com/2022/03/15/the-us-tried-permanent-...

[1] https://savestandardtime.com/maps/

Re: House passes bill to enact year-round Daylight Saving Time across the country

#22

Post by bitshiftfaced »

hobonation wrote: post #10

Cool. We did this before 1974 and immediately went back, and I never understood why. I guess I'll find out. https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/what-happened-the-...

From what I'm reading, it was a big factor that children were walking to school in the dark. One stat I read was that since that time the percentage of kids walking/cycling to school went from almost 50% to now 10%. Maybe that could make the difference this time around.

Re: House passes bill to enact year-round Daylight Saving Time across the country

#23

Post by saulpw »

al_borland wrote: post #21

I think saying on one time is better than switching back and forth, but we should really stick to Standard time. I know people like it to be light out later in the evenings, but they tried this before in the 1970s and it didn't last long[0]. It turns out not only do people not like it to be dark late into the morning, but it also makes it unsafe for kids going to school. Looking at sunrise and sunset times[1], people…

I hate to say it, but you're the problem. One time is better than switching, but we switch because no matter which time standard we choose, some group of people takes issue. The only way we can get one time standard is if we all let go of our highest preference and allow the second-best thing to succeed. Otherwise we'll be doomed to third-best (devolving into worst--see Indiana and Arizona and all the other carveouts within carveouts) for eternity.

Re: House passes bill to enact year-round Daylight Saving Time across the country

#24

Post by kixiQu »

Jtsummers wrote: post #18
marssaxman wrote: post #14

I'm glad we're agreed that changing the clocks twice a year is a bad idea, but I don't understand why we should abandon Daylight Savings Time by adopting it permanently. What's so wrong with Standard Time? Oh, well: whether we put the clocks back or leave them permanently off-by-one, either is better than changing them around over and over.

The reason for permanent daylight savings (versus permanent standard) is to provide for later sunsets in the winter. By clock time, the sun would be rising later (after 8am in many places) but setting later as well giving people some late afternoon or evening sun. Which is better is ultimately subjective, you get short days in the winter regardless when you live far enough north. The late sunrise can be more dangerou…

> Which is better is ultimately subjective

Most folks subjectively prefer having light after work because that's when it's more fun to do stuff. Unfortunately, the health impacts are (objectively!) worse under permanent daylight saving time.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7954020/ https://www.ama-assn.org/public-health/prevention-wellness/s... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6436388/ (I've heard there's been some debate on this one, though the association positions stay the same)

Re: House passes bill to enact year-round Daylight Saving Time across the country

#25

Post by gboss »

saulpw wrote: post #23
al_borland wrote: post #21

I think saying on one time is better than switching back and forth, but we should really stick to Standard time. I know people like it to be light out later in the evenings, but they tried this before in the 1970s and it didn't last long[0]. It turns out not only do people not like it to be dark late into the morning, but it also makes it unsafe for kids going to school. Looking at sunrise and sunset times[1], people…

I hate to say it, but you're the problem. One time is better than switching, but we switch because no matter which time standard we choose, some group of people takes issue. The only way we can get one time standard is if we all let go of our highest preference and allow the second-best thing to succeed. Otherwise we'll be doomed to third-best (devolving into worst--see Indiana and Arizona and all the other carveouts…

This is why I think we have to switch. Everyone should be equally miserable

Re: House passes bill to enact year-round Daylight Saving Time across the country

#26

Post by mysterydip »

marssaxman wrote: post #14

I'm glad we're agreed that changing the clocks twice a year is a bad idea, but I don't understand why we should abandon Daylight Savings Time by adopting it permanently. What's so wrong with Standard Time? Oh, well: whether we put the clocks back or leave them permanently off-by-one, either is better than changing them around over and over.

The golf industry prefers daylight savings: https://gbej.org/golf-industry-fights-to-preserve-daylight-s...

Re: House passes bill to enact year-round Daylight Saving Time across the country

#27

Post by slowin »

al_borland wrote: post #21

I think saying on one time is better than switching back and forth, but we should really stick to Standard time. I know people like it to be light out later in the evenings, but they tried this before in the 1970s and it didn't last long[0]. It turns out not only do people not like it to be dark late into the morning, but it also makes it unsafe for kids going to school. Looking at sunrise and sunset times[1], people…

Start school and work later, "problem" solved. Also another great argument for WFH, don't waste an hour in commute, spend it in bed getting the rest you need!

Re: House passes bill to enact year-round Daylight Saving Time across the country

#28

Post by dlcarrier »

botacode wrote: post #13

This will save a lot of lives! Hope it passes. The shift is a relic of an older economy and damages folks' lives through worse mental health and driving outcomes [0]. [0]: https://www.coveragecat.com/blog/daylight-saving-time-car-in...

It's not the step change in time that's the gratest danger of DST, it's the entire time people are waking up early, increasing cancer rates and all-cause mortality: https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6436388/

Re: House passes bill to enact year-round Daylight Saving Time across the country

#29

Post by garciansmith »

al_borland wrote: post #21

I think saying on one time is better than switching back and forth, but we should really stick to Standard time. I know people like it to be light out later in the evenings, but they tried this before in the 1970s and it didn't last long[0]. It turns out not only do people not like it to be dark late into the morning, but it also makes it unsafe for kids going to school. Looking at sunrise and sunset times[1], people…

I mostly just want the time change to end, but I definitely prefer DST since the afternoon sun is something everyone can enjoy in the winter. I don't get how dark mornings (when a non-trivial percentage of the population is just asleep anyhow) are worse than a dark afternoon, especially when you'll probably wake up in the dark regardless. Plus sunrise even earlier in the summer is useless.

Kids already go to school in the dark in the winter (at least where I'm from). I can see how in the 70's it was more of an issue to increase the number of dark days because many more kids walked to school than they do now (another poster noted it's 10% of children compared to 50%, not sure if that's correct). And DST would be better for afternoon commutes. Plus DST has been pushed to being used during more and more of the year: the spring switch was in late April in the 70s and early 80s, then early April in the late 80s, now early March (since 2007 I think). 75% of the year is DST, let's just make it 100%.

But hey, the morning people out there are never going to be pleased with year-round DST, just like how people like me will never like standard time. But either is better than what we have right now.

Re: House passes bill to enact year-round Daylight Saving Time across the country

#30

Post by cameldrv »

kixiQu wrote: post #24
Jtsummers wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason for permanent daylight savings (versus permanent standard) is to provide for later sunsets in the winter. By clock time, the sun would be rising later (after 8am in many places) but setting later as well giving people some late afternoon or evening sun. Which is better is ultimately subjective, you get short days in the winter regardless when you live far enough north. The late sunrise can be more dangerou…

> Which is better is ultimately subjective Most folks subjectively prefer having light after work because that's when it's more fun to do stuff. Unfortunately, the health impacts are (objectively!) worse under permanent daylight saving time. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC7954020/ https://www.ama-assn.org/public-health/prevention-wellness/s... https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC6436388/ (I've heard th…

Most people also prefer to wake up a bit after the sun rises. Daylight Savings approximates having the sun come up at the same time each day. People do not want to wake up in the dark.
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