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Our Amish Language

thedial.world

71–80 of 107 posts

Re: Our Amish Language

#71
post #32

I didn't know that Amish thought so lowly of their own language, I think that's just sad. It's their own language and there's no reason to measure it against others.

these are amish in a state with low amish presence and super liberal. in the ohio/penn area there are tons of amish who are thriving. i think its cool that in america people can do their own thing and make it work.

I'm the author of the article :) while you're right that Libby is uniquely positioned, I see this attitude often in places like Geauga County, Ohio, for example, where I have many relatives. Just 2 weeks ago an Amish girl there, who's traditional, surrounded by other Amish, tole me she hardly speaks it at all anymore, even with her family at home! That area also doesn't represent the majority, but in areas besides Libby, it's increasingly common to use it more, among young people / with friends especially, but obviously it extends even further for her. She didn't really have an explanation but said she just doesn't even think about it and essentially prefers English. There isn't always overt negativity, but dismissal or apathy are very common.

Re: Our Amish Language

#72

> Difficult to communicate affection, impossible to say the word love. We have no distinct word for it. I wonder what it says about a community that its language has no word for "love".

That stuck out to me because it’s absolutely untrue. Deitsch/Pennsylvania Dutch has “liiwe/liwe/liewe” (there is no standard written orthography for the language) which is precisely “lieben” in standard German. The author absolutely knows this despite her implicit claim that it’s a loanword rather than part of the vocabulary (which it absolutely is, even if her community is sparing in how they use it in Deitsch). It’…

I’m Eythana, the author. That German loanword isn’t used at all, I could say virtually to be safe, but it’s really not used anywhere among the Amish. No one in my community ever did, and the same goes for communities in Ohio where I have many relatives. But besides my anecdotes, Rose Fisher, a linguist at Michigan State who works on the language, has validated this claim, and so has Mark Louden, the foremost PD historian, who I quote extensively. They both reviewed the piece. I could believe that a century or two ago, it was in usage, perhaps, but it isn’t anymore. To say we have no “distinct” word isn’t an exaggeration. We have to borrow directly from German or English as no one uses the loanword version. I’m open to seeing evidence to the contrary. I should say it’s possible that non-sectarian (non-Amish or otherwise historically religious) speakers of PD, of which there aren’t many anymore, may use that? If so, I could have clarified with a caveat, but since the Amish are the primary speakers of PD today, and where my experience comes, it wasn’t something I broached. And also, there was an editorial decision about not discussing non-sectarians in general for the same reasons.

Re: Our Amish Language

#73

> Difficult to communicate affection, impossible to say the word love. We have no distinct word for it. I wonder what it says about a community that its language has no word for "love".

This is flatly untrue; the language has a word for love, or people just use the High German or English term for it, along with colloquial expressions (like calling someone sweet). A statement like this makes the author lose all credibility: Neither our language nor our culture invites dwelling in the complexities of grief and loss. The language certainly can express grief and loss, and people from that culture seem t…

I’m Eythana, the article’s author. I’ve made no claims about this group being uneducated or unable to express themselves in general. There are certain limitations in the scope of the language’s vocabulary, which you would know if you spoke it. No one who’s familiar will deny this. This doesn’t mean they are unable to talk about certain topics, but when using Pennsylvania Dutch, it is simply the case that one must use more English words, choose from a much smaller pool of descriptors, or perhaps skim over it or avoid the subject altogether. All of these happen frequently. I have no contempt for the culture or language as you stated, but I do find it unfortunate when I see vocabulary being disregarded as speakers continued to use more English in the midst of Pennsylvania Dutch, which I described. This is a very well documented phenomenon and my bringing it up is completely neutral. If anything, I champion the use of PD as much as possible while many Amish people I know and encounter are less interested in that. If you have any actual evidence to contradict my these points besides your impression from a few conversations (assumably in English), I’d be happy to see it.

Re: Our Amish Language

#74

> Louden points out, for example, that Swedish and Norwegian are highly mutually intelligible, but neither is considered a dialect of the other, or of a parent language, primarily because each is associated with a separate nation-state. This reminds me of the famous saying, "A language is a dialect with an army and navy." It was also originally uttered in a German-adjacent language, Yiddish: " a shprakh iz a dyalekt…

We can understand them! Especially if you are ready and used being hit with interjected English words. It is hard to get used to it the first few minutes (i speak two other languages, language switching is always hard for me), but once you know what to look out for we could be talking interchangeably. My teacher in high school went there over 40 years ago, and he said, he never had any trouble. Listening on youtube t…

Hi, I’m the author. I’ve never met someone from the region so I haven’t been able to test this but I’d love to at some point. Thanks for sharing.

Re: Our Amish Language

#75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's completely plausible the author's experience is a valid projection of the people they were surrounded by and also valid.

"anecdote" is the word you are looking for - which means based only on personal stories and not systematic research.

I know the word, thanks I think?

Re: Our Amish Language

#76

> Louden points out, for example, that Swedish and Norwegian are highly mutually intelligible, but neither is considered a dialect of the other, or of a parent language, primarily because each is associated with a separate nation-state. This reminds me of the famous saying, "A language is a dialect with an army and navy." It was also originally uttered in a German-adjacent language, Yiddish: " a shprakh iz a dyalekt…

Wow, aside from ‘shprakh’ that is easily understood as an English speaker.

‘Is a dialect with (an) army and flotilla/navy’

Re: Our Amish Language

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

According to gemini, "Total Fertility Rate" ("average number of children a woman would have over her lifetime if she experienced the current age-specific fertility rates of her society"). This HN thing of casually using acronyms without defining them is baffling to me

It's baffling to you that people are comfortable in their niche and use their own jargon? Are you a baby that needs to be spoonfed every little bit of information?

To be fair, the use of TFR had approximately zero context to clue that person in to what it could mean. If you go back and read the first paragraph, there is no mention of children, birth, babies, or any other context clues that help the reader understand what the acronym is even relating to. It abstractly compares ‘TFR’ of several religious groups, it could mean anything. If you want to casually drop semi-obscure acronyms it’s good practice to give context clues by using words related to the acronym near the use of the acronym instead of being abstract like the OP.

I knew what the acronym was but I’ve spent time reading about religious groups and economic/social classes and fertility rates of those groups depending on the level of whatever you would call devotedness or strict adherence to the most conservative version of that belief system.

Which one of these two sentences makes it easier to guess what the acronym means or to google it? I could probably think of a better example using an acronym that has collisions, but this will have to do.

1. “The SOFR has not changed during 2026.”

2. “The Federal Reserve has voted to maintain the SOFR during 2026.”

Re: Our Amish Language

#78

I've had a bit of fun working with low resource languages (aboriginal australian), and enjoying the result from Facebook's No Language Left Behind project -> https://huggingface.co/facebook/nllb-200-distilled-600M I'd recommend giving it a squiz. (I assume Amish has a large corpus)

> (I assume Amish has a large corpus) Pennsylvania Dutch does not, it is primarily oral and the Amish generally don't allow themselves to be photographed or recorded.

One thing you learn if you study the Amish or interact with them personally: there is no "Amish generally" or "the Amish usually".

Every Amish congregation makes their own rules. The local deacons vote on changes. Each "Fellowship" of congregations has tenets and rules they require to be "in fellowship" but otherwise don't have control over the individual groups. Splits are often driven by disagreement over the fellowship rules.

There are Amish that own cars but the group might specify that each family may only own one car and it must be model X and of color Y with a specific set of features. Most people are aware of the groups that prohibit cars - requiring use of horse and buggy.

Some Amish allow electricity, but only connected to the barn or only when provided by solar power. Or they might only allow it to the extent required to comply with regulation - for example refrigeration for milk on a dairy farm. Some allow cell phones, but not in the home (you leave it in the barn or a lockbox). Some prohibit them entirely. Some Amish groups allow machinery but apply restrictions that don't allow use of the machinery to end up with one farmer greatly out-producing others. So when a farmer gets old they may allow them to buy a tractor for fieldwork but require it be pulled by horses.

You might also be surprised to learn many Amish experiment with new technology. Often the deacons will appoint a "nerdy" (for lack of a better term) person in the community to use some new thing. They'll evaluate its effects and costs. Then hold a vote on whether to allow it and what the rules will be. Sometime their answer to changes is not "no" but "not yet".

The decisions are nominally driven by a desire to be independent and to avoid negatively affecting family life rather than rejecting technology directly. Most don't allow electricity, cell phones, or internet inside the home because it would lead to people not interacting or connecting with each other. When power tools are allowed they're often pneumatic so they don't need to be tied to the grid and thus dependent upon "the English" - though with Solar and batteries that has rapidly changed.

Most don't allow extensive use of farming machinery because it could lead to your neighbor out-producing you, leading to them getting much richer and having more than you leading to discord in the community. If cars are allowed they may require everyone to buy the same car so there is no jealousy or "keeping up with the Joneses".

Amish are just people so they certainly have assholes and jerks but many are friendly people and if you treat them genuinely they'll repay the favor. They will not be offended that you use a cell phone or drive a car.

Surprising how often things boil down to "they're just people and most people, if treated with respect, will repay in kind".

Re: Our Amish Language

#79
The thing I always think about when I think about societies like this is, They are on a timer. Eventually, they will have no choice to but accept mechanization. Because humans will not able to farm in 90% humidity due to wetbulb physics. Animal husbandry will most likely be a WORSE horror show than what we have now, due to the fact that most live stock will similarly be unable to deal with the heat. And lets be honest, most of the farms we have now are unsustainable. So famine is definitely a thing we'll have to consider.

Re: Our Amish Language

#80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's baffling to you that people are comfortable in their niche and use their own jargon? Are you a baby that needs to be spoonfed every little bit of information?

To be fair, the use of TFR had approximately zero context to clue that person in to what it could mean. If you go back and read the first paragraph, there is no mention of children, birth, babies, or any other context clues that help the reader understand what the acronym is even relating to. It abstractly compares ‘TFR’ of several religious groups, it could mean anything. If you want to casually drop semi-obscure ac…

I, myself, documented that ACE stands for AI Compute Extensions, on a post on HN that used it without defining it, and got a couple points for it. I'm pushing back against that everything has to be spoonfed to us and that we shouldn't be expected to do any of our own work to understand something here and complaining about it.
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