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European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

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Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#151

Post by athrowaway3z »

saltwatercowboy wrote: post #145
SoftTalker wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have had the need to prove age for hundreds of years. To buy alcohol. To drive a car. To vote. We depend on government-issued documents to do this. Not sure why anyone would really expect this to change just because it's online now.

Very obviously because privacy advocates are concerned by the effects of mass deanonymization. I find it doubtful that you don't grasp that.

I bought a bag of chips without having to show my ID.

There is a big difference between: Government demands every website to have age verification, and government supported scheme by which service can opt into age verification.

As of now, American private spyware is actively filling the demand.

I get the feeling some privacy advocates are approaching the choice as a tier system, with government being the worst case.

I don't see it.

The only viable solution for the future of privacy is to not be dependent on the giant platforms in the first place.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#152

Post by arrrg »

alistairSH wrote: post #125
roundabout-host wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The "app" could be a good solution, if it didn't require attested Android or iOS. It could, for example, have me plug my ID chip into my GNU/Linux system and expose it with a standard protocol. That would be no problem. The problem is that they do not want such a way. In any case, I think that age gating would not be needed if the platforms were regulated to remove addictive recommendation algorithms.

ID chip? Is that something everybody in the EU (or whatever region) has? Is it just embedded in your driver license or passport? [I'm in the US, we're very ID-averse here, weird, but is what it is]

ID cards aren’t exactly super standardized inside the EU. German ID cards have a RFID chip which basically contains all the same info that’s printed on the outside (PIN protected).

Smartphones can read that chip and the state as well as private businesses could in principle use this to do age verification – even the super minimal version of age verification that just asks for a certain age threshold and gets a binary response whether that threshold is met. (Which to me if we can achieve it is the perfect solution.)

The infrastructure is there and since 2017 those RFID chips are even actived by default when new ID cards are issued. (The cards are valid for ten years so nearly all ID cards have those active chips.)

The biggest issue currently is a network effect one: hardly anyone is using the chip so people don’t create their initial PIN, creating a UX hurdle for adoption. (If you want to use your ID card chip you have to find your initial PIN somewhere in your documents – if you didn’t throw it away – and then create your proper PIN, you can’t just start using it.)

I can sense usage increasing but exactly because of the poor initial use UX all sorts of private alternate solutions exist that are plain worse from a privacy preserving point of view. For example ones where you film your ID card from both sides (so the hologram is visible) which just suck. (You just share everything … which is just so unnecessary.)

To change this we would need a policy that requires age verification without sharing the birthdate or any other PII.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#154

Post by anonreplier »

amelius wrote: post #101
pibaker wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of the engines you mentioned are nearly as approachable as roblox when it comes to making a 3D game with little programming or art skills. Don't get me wrong. I agree roblox is a very shady operation, but that does not erase the fact that their platform is unmatched when it comes to letting kids make games.

> Don't get me wrong. I agree roblox is a very shady operation, but that does not erase the fact that their platform is unmatched when it comes to letting kids make games. Ok, well then, toss your hands in the air and throw away all your principles then, I suppose.

how is the view in your ivory tower?

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#155

Post by creaturemachine »

a2128 wrote: post #150
zh3 wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a purely tactical measure, we use the same older person (me) for age verification for all family members - zero failures so far and it poisons the well.

In the case of Roblox they have a horrible system where they estimate your age and only allow you to interact with people of a similar age, meaning if you verified your kid with your face then they'd only be able to interact with adults and not other kids. At least that's the theory. It doesn't take a lot of effort to figure out how a predator could misuse this system to their advantage (which is why I call it horrib…

Predators have been using roblox since its inception, but I don't think they are doing age verification because of that. They're looking to expand into more adult experiences and, of all horrible ideas, dating.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#156

Post by intended »

creaturemachine wrote: post #155
a2128 wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the case of Roblox they have a horrible system where they estimate your age and only allow you to interact with people of a similar age, meaning if you verified your kid with your face then they'd only be able to interact with adults and not other kids. At least that's the theory. It doesn't take a lot of effort to figure out how a predator could misuse this system to their advantage (which is why I call it horrib…

Predators have been using roblox since its inception, but I don't think they are doing age verification because of that. They're looking to expand into more adult experiences and, of all horrible ideas, dating.

I’ve seen Roblox invest and conduct child safety research for several years now.

Maybe they are expanding into other industries, but the safety focus predates that.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#157

Post by fsflover »

toasty228 wrote: post #139
dheera wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You won't be able to see a doctor when you're sick. You won't be able to open a bank account to receive your salary. You won't be able to buy train or plane tickets. My point is I am most worried that these kind of "digital verification" type things most impact actual necessities. The social media I couldn't care less about. "I just won't use it" isn't really a solution.

You already can't do any of these things without some kind of governmental issued ID which already has your birthdate on it. idk why people are so scared of it, do you really believe they don't know what you do on your personal internet connection linked to your name and payment data ? Like yeah sure if you pay everything in cash and never use internet OK that's a big problem, but for the average HN shitposter who's…

> You already can't do any of these things without some kind of governmental issued ID which already has your birthdate on it.

Do you have to present this ID for every purchase you make or every website you visit? Will it be stored and processed by every shop you enter? If not, how is this relevant here? Currently, the personal data exists but is not accessed by anyone unless it is really required. And even then, the scope can be minimized if the user wants.

> do you really believe they don't know what you do on your personal internet connection linked to your name and payment data ?

Yes. I use Whonix on Qubes to access HN and other websites.

> but for the average HN shitposter who's already terminally online it really doesn't change much

Speak for yourself.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#158

Post by casey2 »

skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

Then get your kid off Roblox. I promise you that Roblox exploits more children in a single day than all sex offenders put together do in a year.

Why is pedophilia such a problem on Roblox? It's because they heavily advertise towards children and one of the fastest ways for children to make money is asking their parents, then next is prostitution. Roblox is uniquely bad because they heavily advertise both products and the "self-made entrepreneur" image to children.

Putting the blame on nebulous "predators" when the system itself is clearly to blame is the very tacit Roblox relies on. Look at vehicular manslaughter are drunk and distracted drivers solely to blame for deaths? Clearly not since there are just as many drunks and phones in Europe as in the US. When the system creates more predators than exist otherwise then you know it needs to change.

If your son likes making games keep him on Godot. Your job as a parent is to find or build a good distribution system. you can see if he is generally interested or if he was pressured by an exploitative system grooming him into pumping out slop for the trough. Age verification is going to make the platform more exploitative in the business sense. Both in that it legitimizes bad practices and lets Roblox target their exploitative practices more effectively.

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#159

Post by sajithdilshan »

skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

What you’re proposing works only if the government is always trustworthy and abiding by the rules. But there has been cases that ICE agents in US was able to track down people from their social media posts and in the past Nazis used the address registration lists to track down Jews for deportation to concentration camps.

We don’t know what EU would become in 5 to 10 years in the future, and I would rather not have any identification information about me or family being stored by a government body or any other party that can track/link me or my family members

Re: European "age verification" "app" forcing everyone to use Android or iOS

#160

Post by sva_ »

skrebbel wrote: post #30

I agree wholeheartedly with the argument raised in this github issue, but I think people are wrong to be skeptical about the concept of a government-issued age verification app. Thing is, the status quo is absolutely worse. My 13yo son likes making Roblox games. Suddenly, some months ago, Roblox made a change where you’re not allowed to share your games with friends unless you do “age verification”, apparently in som…

I guess that is one way to manufacture consent.
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