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Australian energy retailers must offer three hours of free daytime electricity

lenergy.com.au

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Re: Australian energy retailers must offer three hours of free daytime electricity

#151

Post by AnthonyMouse »

embedding-shape wrote: post #140
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spoken as someone who never been poor. There is definitely a ton of stuff people with money can do to save more money, that is completely out of reach for the people who would actually benefit from those savings the most. Subsidies is quite literally about reaching these folks that others tend to forget about. Except that there is no additional money, its just your own money but now there are strings. On top of tha…

> Except that there is no additional money, its just your own money but now there are strings. I understand what you mean, and yeah, "it's just your money", but also, it really isn't. Poor people have to pay taxes, no way around it, getting them back as subsidies is still better for them than not getting it back at all. The choice isn't "Keep the money or have subsidies", the choice is "The money goes to other stuff…

> The choice isn't "Keep the money or have subsidies", the choice is "The money goes to other stuff or get subsidies".

That's the false dichotomy that happens in a broken government, but then why hold that out as something desirable?

> Are those interest-free or managed by for-profit entities?

Is the larger amount of mortgage or car loan debt they have to carry when they pay the extra money in tax?

> Because "not taking it from you to begin with" isn't a practical and realistic alternative, that's not how the world, and especially taxes and government works...

Your argument seems to be that lowering taxes on ordinary people is impossible?

Re: Australian energy retailers must offer three hours of free daytime electricity

#152

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #106
embedding-shape wrote: post #96

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it so out of the ordinary that a government tries to help people save money or what's the question? Sounds like you've only had the American experience in life unfortunately.

If something actually saves money then it doesn't require a subsidy because people would be doing it regardless. Meanwhile the government doesn't have any of its own money, so it can't really give you something that was yours to begin with, all it can do is take it from you and then give it back with strings attached. How is that helping you? Instead of subsidizing something you can make up your own mind about whethe…

Think of it as a giant corporate tax break, but for the little people.

Re: Australian energy retailers must offer three hours of free daytime electricity

#153

Post by thedays »

chicken-stew wrote: post #137
thedays wrote: post #131

This article is misleading as it implies that Australian energy retailers must provide every household with 3 hours of free electricity. This is not the case. From 1 July 2026, Australian energy retailers with more than 1,000 customers must offer at least one energy plan which includes 3 hours of free electricity, capped at 24kWh per day, to residential customers in 3 states - NSW, SE Queensland and South Australia.…

Wait, capped at 24 kWh a day? Our household consumed 8 kWh per day over the past week (gas cooking, no airco). So with a home battery that sinks 10 kWh during those 3 hours you have minimal energy costs?

Yes - the regulated offer is capped at 24 kWh per day but some retailers such as Globird and CovaU are offering plans which include up to 50 kWh per day of ‘free’ electricity. With a large enough battery and inverter you could just end up paying daily supply charges of $1.65-2.20 per day.

Re: Australian energy retailers must offer three hours of free daytime electricity

#154

Post by stubish »

ghiculescu wrote: post #93
jofzar wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but if price swings are this wild, how are grid scale batteries not highly economical They are super economical in Australia and the government even offers discounts and interest free loan of 15k to buy them.

They are super economical… which is why there’s a subsidy required for people to buy them?

The more households that buy them, the less peak power generation is needed and less large scale battery deployments. If the ROI of a household battery was just 4%, you are better off economically paying higher power bills and sticking that money in an index fund. But if subsidies increase that ROI, more people buy batteries. The money the government contributes hopefully ends up less than they would need to spend on large scale battery deployments or on legacy power generation to power peak usage times. It also has the side effect of getting more citizens (literally) invested in sustainable power usage, and people get more interested in insulating their homes, buying more efficient appliances, moving away from gas etc.

Re: Australian energy retailers must offer three hours of free daytime electricity

#155

Post by grey-area »

CalRobert wrote: post #53
grey-area wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry autocorrect changed heat pollution to ‘what pollution’, I’ve fixed that now. There is some impact on others, particularly those without ac.

If you’re using rooftop solar then presumably the net heat generated by your aircon is the same as the amount your roof is no longer absorbing. Otherwise you just described a perpetual motion machine?

I imagine that absorption by the roof or panels is around the same - however the aircon moves heat from inside to outside, so you are moving heat outside for other people to deal with. In an isolated house it makes little difference. If every building has aircon in a city it does impact outside temperatures and adds to the heat island effect.

Re: Australian energy retailers must offer three hours of free daytime electricity

#156

Post by som »

chicken-stew wrote: post #137
thedays wrote: post #131

This article is misleading as it implies that Australian energy retailers must provide every household with 3 hours of free electricity. This is not the case. From 1 July 2026, Australian energy retailers with more than 1,000 customers must offer at least one energy plan which includes 3 hours of free electricity, capped at 24kWh per day, to residential customers in 3 states - NSW, SE Queensland and South Australia.…

Wait, capped at 24 kWh a day? Our household consumed 8 kWh per day over the past week (gas cooking, no airco). So with a home battery that sinks 10 kWh during those 3 hours you have minimal energy costs?

Forget 3hrs free. We lived in the tropics in Australia with a ~6kW system and often had negative quarterly invoices (i.e. got paid by our retailer) ... esp. in winter months. Aircon, pool, appliances all electric. At the very least the pool pump ran free all year round.

Edit: should add, that's straight solar no battery

Re: Australian energy retailers must offer three hours of free daytime electricity

#157

Post by AnthonyMouse »

actionfromafar wrote: post #146
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Think about people who could not afford the initial investment. This is what loans and installment plans are for, the payments for which come out of the savings on the utility bill. > It's beneficial for society here if the government redistributes wealth for the benefit of all. Which has nothing to do with batteries. If you want to do that then provide them with a refundable tax credit that allows for a negative t…

Why should they? In my mind it's all a coordination problem. Sometimes loans work better, sometimes subsidies work better. Neither loans nor subsidies are dirty words IMHO.

> In my mind it's all a coordination problem.

But that's the point. It isn't. Electricity costs more in the evening than during the day and there is a technology that can profitably be used to arbitrage the difference. There is no coordination problem at all, people have the direct individual incentive to buy the technology, on credit if necessary, without any form of government subsidy or involvement whatsoever.

Re: Australian energy retailers must offer three hours of free daytime electricity

#158

Post by grey-area »

brabel wrote: post #46
grey-area wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry autocorrect changed heat pollution to ‘what pollution’, I’ve fixed that now. There is some impact on others, particularly those without ac.

In a country like Australia where building density is extremely low that’s a negligible problem?!

Sure if building density is low in your area and you have no nearby neighbours it probably doesn’t matter, you’d just be heating your surroundings a little.

Re: Australian energy retailers must offer three hours of free daytime electricity

#159

Post by ggm »

nutjob2 wrote: post #143
ggm wrote: post #132

The requirement is to accept time of use TOU variant charging and if you cannot shift enough load into 3 hours you may pay more overall for power in other times of day. Demand shifting is good. Do not mistake this as free energy, it very much depends. Many people still don't have TOU meters and many people won't successfully move load into the window. Fixed line costs are rising massively. Electricity should be signi…

Or buy a subsidized battery to store the free power and use it whenever you like.

Yes, that's also being done. A critique I have seen is that this is empowering the rich to get richer. Renters are less likely to be able to adopt these strategies.

Re: Australian energy retailers must offer three hours of free daytime electricity

#160

Post by AnthonyMouse »

yorwba wrote: post #145
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Spoken as someone who never been poor. There is definitely a ton of stuff people with money can do to save more money, that is completely out of reach for the people who would actually benefit from those savings the most. Subsidies is quite literally about reaching these folks that others tend to forget about. Except that there is no additional money, its just your own money but now there are strings. On top of tha…

> that's what loans are for Upthread: "interest free loan of 15k" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48904009

Loans for non-trivially profitable investments don't require government interest subsidies.
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