Live data from Hacker News

Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

tech.supercarblondie.com

101–110 of 208 posts

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#101

The article is very, very light with details. The university or research center is not named. No scientist is named. No link. Nothing that tells "look, we're telling you real, solid, serious stuff." Here is another article with that details : https://www.techspot.com/news/112051-japan-finds-way-recover...

you seem to have missed the domain on which the article is posted

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#102
post #21

It really should not be surprising that we can get very high recovery percentages from batteries -- we do not mine elemental lithium, so the processes we use for extraction are already designed to extract lithium from fairly low-purity sources. In contrast, lithium batteries are an incredibly high-purity source of lithium. The main question is when it will become cost-effective to create recycling pipelines. Lead aci…

I think the issues with recycling lithium from electrolyte containing lithium hexafluorophosphate in solvents is more the hexafluorophosphate part; it's highly reactive, hygroscopic and releases (toxic, corrosive) hydrogen fluoride upon contact with water. So purely from economic perspective it's possibly not worth it unless we are very lithium-constrained. Of course it should be done anyway as there will be a lot of used batteries in near future.

The article doesn't really give us the details which is a pity.

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#103
post #62

Some geopolitical context: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2010_Senkaku_boat_collision_in... https://www.rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/comme... Japan was one of the first countries to be hit with rare-earth export-restrictions by China - going back to 2010. It seems that a lot of policy came out from this unpleasant shock, incl. the decision by Toyota to focus on developing FCEVs which would be less depend…

If anybody else wondered FCEV = Fuel Cell Electric Vehicle.

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#104

This article is poor, because lithium is just one part of the value contained within EV batteries. Far more valuable is any nickel, cobalt and graphite. Equally valuable is any copper and aluminium. Unless you're effectively recycling a significant number of the major materials, it's not enough. Furthermore, it's not a remarkable achievement. By contrast to this headline, Redwood Materials claims "Redwood’s technolog…

The battery supply chain is moving away from NMC because of the myriad problems with nickel and cobalt and has been for a long time.

Yes, LFP is a better chemistry for various reasons including cost. Thankfully this means that nickel and cobalt are not needed for EVs adoption to continue scaling.

For now, NMC remains superior for some high performance applications, as well as for high-end laptops and phones. Yes, there are "myriad" problems with nickel and cobalt. These problems will diminish as scale makes recycling economically competitive to virgin material mining.

At some point the number of EV batteries being disposed will approach equilibrium to the number of new vehicle batteries manufactured. When this happens the amount of virgin nickel and cobalt needed will also approach zero.

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And one of the points that's a little more obvious living here: Japan is a remarkably car centric culture. Not quite to the extent of America, but in much of the country you really do need a car. If anything the main exceptions to that are exactly the places tourists are most likely to go.

I disagree, I lived a year in a small town near Osaka far from any tourist attractions and never did I wish I had a car. Public transport was ubiquitous and walking infrastructure excellent. Lots of people on bikes. Roads were tiny so cars on them are tiny and driving slowly, making it feel safe to share the roads with them. Maybe the most clear indication that Japan isn't a car centric culture was the complete lack…

Japan has 670 cars per 1,000 people, the US has 779. Not a huge gap.

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#106

This article is poor, because lithium is just one part of the value contained within EV batteries. Far more valuable is any nickel, cobalt and graphite. Equally valuable is any copper and aluminium. Unless you're effectively recycling a significant number of the major materials, it's not enough. Furthermore, it's not a remarkable achievement. By contrast to this headline, Redwood Materials claims "Redwood’s technolog…

> Far more valuable is any nickel, cobalt and graphite. Equally valuable is any copper and aluminium.

All of these metals are already almost fully recycled (not sure about graphite). Lithium is the toughest to recycle and it's not solved yet, so it's right to focus on that, because there will be a lot of lithium electrolyte to dispose in the near future.

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#107

why bother? japan hate EV

Japan wants domestic industry and specializes in things other than battery production

On another comment in this thread https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48902162 it is said

> Toyota is still digging its heels in on gas-powered cars, even though the fact that Tesla used Japanese batteries in its early days proves Japan was once ahead of the curve.but they always seem to retreat right back into their comfort zone after a brief flash of brilliance, watching the rest of the world race ahead while they continue living in the past.

Did Japan get behind on battery tech? Couldn't them make a priority to get an edge there too?

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TIL 'The White House' isn't a sentient building

Would make for a nice sci-fi, and explain a lot. Not only is it sentient, it's telepathic and malicious!

Metal Gear Solid 2 sort of

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And one of the points that's a little more obvious living here: Japan is a remarkably car centric culture. Not quite to the extent of America, but in much of the country you really do need a car. If anything the main exceptions to that are exactly the places tourists are most likely to go.

I disagree, I lived a year in a small town near Osaka far from any tourist attractions and never did I wish I had a car. Public transport was ubiquitous and walking infrastructure excellent. Lots of people on bikes. Roads were tiny so cars on them are tiny and driving slowly, making it feel safe to share the roads with them. Maybe the most clear indication that Japan isn't a car centric culture was the complete lack…

So, yes, the extreme pedestrian hostility that is sometimes normal in the US isn't around, and there's more likely to be a viable transit system. That's especially the case if you're in the outskirts of a major metropolitan area where there are going to be commuters into the core transit network.

Still, if I hop on an express train for an hour away from central Tokyo, every house has a car park and most significant stores have dedicated parking spaces, and I get a vibe of "suburbia with narrower streets". Heck, I get some of that even as close as Kawasaki or southern Tokyo once you're away from major train stations.

Re: Japan develops a method to recover up to 90% of lithium from used EV batteries

#110
post #21

It really should not be surprising that we can get very high recovery percentages from batteries -- we do not mine elemental lithium, so the processes we use for extraction are already designed to extract lithium from fairly low-purity sources. In contrast, lithium batteries are an incredibly high-purity source of lithium. The main question is when it will become cost-effective to create recycling pipelines. Lead aci…

U.S. lead acid baterries recycling has been outsourced. " As the United States tightened regulations on lead processing to protect Americans over the past three decades, finding domestic lead became a challenge. So the auto industry looked overseas to supplement its supply. In doing so, car and battery manufacturers pushed the health consequences of lead recycling onto countries where enforcement is lax, testing is r…

>countries where enforcement is lax

As an Indian this is exactly one of the reasons why I am afraid of EV boom. All of that bad stuff, which we are mostly unfamiliar with (in terms of how to handle it properly, because battery tech is always changing) is going to dumped in places like India. And would silently sustain the bad effects for many decades or even more, until it (the bad stuff) somehow reaches some developed country (probably never).

Post reply on HN