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Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

raymyers.org

631–640 of 862 posts

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#631
post #153

> From my perspective, Anthropic is the party we need to hold accountable here. It's insane that Ray Myers thinks that Anthropic did anything related to this port that requires holding them accountable; the fact that he used those words makes me want to prevent him from having any influence over AI policy.

Funding and owning something makes you accountable yes, that's how it works normally.

For what, rewriting an open source project in a new language? It’s insane that in 2026 this is seen as controversial.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#632
post #528

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rust is not and has never been "make literally everything safe", it's "push the unsafe boundary as low as possible and keep as much as possible above it so that you can reduce the surface area for unsafety and more easily find bugs in the unsafe code". Another definition: Rust is a lang to "Run fast and low-level software/firmware, with nicer tools, features, and syntax than the other langs which can do this"! Obvi…

I don't think I agree with this framing because "definition" implies comprehensiveness in a way that "here are some properties which may not cover everything that's relevant" does not. Your "definition" implicitly ignores the safety mechanism that Rust has and Zig lacks, which does a lot of rhetorical work into making it seem like the only difference is in "flavor" rather than "substance". My argument that there is a…

Semantics on "definition".

"safety" is not why I use and love it. I brought this up because someone who hasn't used Rust, but reads about it may assume it's a "safe" language; I would describe it instead as a nice all-around language.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#633

There's so much good stuff in this post. Can't help to think of a recent HN post about most AI-generated projects being abandoned within months. Why? Because value of a project is not in the code produced. It's in the amount of battle-testing that code has seen. Battle-tested, mature code > fresh rewrite. Existing Zig codebase has seen X amount of battle-testing. Rust rewrite: 0 (except -I'm assuming- passing test su…

But it’s really the same old problem we’ve seen for decades. Developers write code. Owners declare victory. Owners rid themselves of expensive opex. Owners sell the division or try to keep the project limping along but all they see is vaguaries from the new cheap guy who they keep telling isn’t good enough for a raise, company hemorrhages money and eventually sells for a song. They’ve just found a way to explore that…

Owners and developers. I've been thinking about this a lot lately. Years ago, maybe in the late 2000s, when startups were becoming culturally significant, and "Tech" became an "Industry", two books were written and published: Founders at Work by Livingston, and Coders at Work by Seibel. I read both, and recall the Founders-book being a bit of a slog -- I only read it once[0]. The Coders-book, I have been re-reading it for more than a decade. I am sure there are many people who would express the _opposite_ sentiment.

The existence of _two_ books, published by the same publisher, within a few years of each other, is a kind of tacit acknowledgement, that there are two categories of people (Owners/Founders and Developers/Coders), that have a kind of symbiotic relationship with each other. That relationship has always been a relationship of convenience and gain, not resonance and understanding and appreciation.

It is, in a way, similar to globalization: nations will support it, only to the extent that it can make them (or their elites) wealthier, and not because they actually care about peace, or the magnificent diversity of human culture and creativity.

Just as the globalized economy is fraying, so is the symbiotic relationship between Founders and Coders. I think it started with the pandemic, which caused (without pointing any fingers) a tension between Founders and Coders, and has been accelerated by LLMs. In some sense, the tactics that were use by Tech companies to wow and win customers outside of Tech, are now being used by Tech companies on other Tech companies. And those tactics involve making grand promises to people who have knowledge-gaps, and are otherwise easily impressed.

I did not realize that there even was a symbiotic relationship, until I analyzed US degree-completion-rates for 1970 to 2011[1][2]. I suppose it should have been obvious, but these things are difficult to perceive from the inside (even if you've been working in the industry for an entire decade). The big problem is that the symbiosis is asymmetrical: founders get the money, and pay the coders, and are able to fire and replace coders at will, while coders can do none of this to the founders. This may have been fine, in an era where layoffs were rare, and getting a replacement job was less uncertain. But I suspect that the contest we are going to see in the next few years is: can Founders out-code Coders, or can Coders out-found Founders. Note that the Viaweb story (the archetypal startup-story for HN), is a story of Coders out-founding Founders (the equivalent of the late 90s era, did not found companies so much as administer small parts of them).

[0]: This is not a criticism of the author/interviewer, nor the interviewees -- the subject matter simply did not intersect enough with my own obsessions and fixations. I wish it did. It feels like I have some kind of color blindness, when it comes to "founder-y" things.

[1]: You can find a (fair warning: long) PDF here: https://galacticbeyond.com/pdf/two-percent-programmer.pdf

[2]: If you do not want to read all of that, here is a TLDR. The percentage of informatics-degree-completions never drops below 2% (which confirms an informal observation Knuth has made many times -- see his 3 or 4 oral histories and his interview in Coders at Work). The percentage of informatics-degree-completions rises and falls with business-degree-completions (the symbiosis is visible here). It never exceeds 4.5%, and such doublings coincide with bubbles (the dot-com bubble, and the 1980s AI-bubble -- there is a history section that helps narrate these numbers). Most intriguingly, informatics-degree-completions are _perfectly inversely correlated_ with healthcare-degree-completions -- their first-derivatives are nearly perfect mirror images. Also, the majority of graduates are business-graduates (accounting, administration, etc -- economics belongs to social-sciences instead of business), and their numbers have doubled since 1970, at the expense of social sciences and education (I suspect that this has had an impact on our (both global and American) culture akin to the impact that climate-change has had on our planet, but I have no data to put behind that suspicion, yet).

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#634

There's so much good stuff in this post. Can't help to think of a recent HN post about most AI-generated projects being abandoned within months. Why? Because value of a project is not in the code produced. It's in the amount of battle-testing that code has seen. Battle-tested, mature code > fresh rewrite. Existing Zig codebase has seen X amount of battle-testing. Rust rewrite: 0 (except -I'm assuming- passing test su…

Honestly I also think most vibe-coded projects are just.. kind of bad ideas. Which is fine! It's good to be able to determine an idea is bad quickly, there's value in that, but I think people ignore a really important aspect of creativity: the insights you need to have a good idea come from struggling in the muck and struggling in the medium. It's really hard to have good ideas from an ivory tower, you need to get into the details.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#635
I have found myself wondering a lot lately about the alternative universe where all the effort and resources devoted to developing and using AI coding and debugging agents were instead simply dedicated to fuzzing human-generated code. How would the code quality and total usefulness of the results have compared?

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#636
post #537

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They may not be a majority, but if kinder souls decide to leave for a more welcoming community Given the context, you mean Rust? Nothing against Rust folks but I wouldn't really call it more welcoming community.

[flagged]

>What Bun did here is basically a sabotage of Zig's reputation.

No a single soul thought Bun was doing anything against Zig's reputation apart from a few people in Zig. They are the one being over sensitive. When the whole internet was on Zig's side and not a single soul which are normally on Rust came it to support. But somehow it is sabotage of zig?

There is a whole lot of different between being rude and direct to a person on technical issues, such as what Linus used to do on kennel list, and a personal attack that goes beyond the initial point.

And why use a new account?

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#638

I think like most people, I don’t have a problem with Andrew “calling a spade a spade,” even if I find his reasoning motivated. The bigger problem with the post is that it talks out of both ends of the mouth: it’s clearly meant as a personal attack, but also insists that it isn’t. When I read the post, my first thought was that I wouldn’t want to build things in Zig, because any technical decision I make, good or bad…

It might be helpful to read the latest revision of Andrew's post, which may address this concern for you. It received several revisions: https://github.com/andrewrk/andrewkelley.me/commits/master/p...

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C/C++ is low friction compared to Rust? Wow. We have very different experiences.

If your objective is just to hack something together quickly to test an idea, and doesn't care if the application segfault 6 hours later (eg. a prototype game engine), C++ is definitely the superior choice to Rust. Rust is like the instructor demanding that you build your house up to the national code, down to the choice of nail for your floor board. Your house will be perfect, but building it is extremely difficult…

> doesn't care if the application segfault 6 hours later (eg. a prototype game engine), C++ is definitely the superior choice to Rust.

I wouldn't say "definitely", given Rust deps management is way more streamlined.

Re: Zig Creator Calls Spade a Spade, Anthropic Blows Smoke

#640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> ONE angry blog It's not the first. He recently called GitHub employees "monkeys". > What Bun did here is basically a sabotage of Zig's reputation How?

[flagged]

> You know Github sucks, right?

You say that as though it somehow justifies the comment.

Github employees are just that: employees, of one of the biggest companies on Earth. Someone who would call them "monkeys" is telling us that we shouldn't listen to him.

Which is the right conclusion here. Don't use Zig, don't use Bun, neither are mature products from mature teams. Problem solved.

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