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Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

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Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#31

Post by tbrownaw »

quadrifoliate wrote: post #25
dataflow wrote: post #14

> If a program cannot show that it leaves its graduates financially better off than if they had never enrolled, it should not be underwritten by federal taxpayers Wouldn't this punish a huge number of students who struggle academically, by comparing them against better-achievers who simply skipped school? The two populations being compared are entirely different for a lot of schools. Just because the average student…

> Wouldn't this punish a huge number of students who struggle academically, by comparing them against better-achievers who simply skipped school? Why would it not just compare them to the average person who skips school, which can be a combination of better and worse achievers? Is there some part I'm missing where the academically struggling are selectively compared to elite school-skippers?

I read the parent comment as claiming that some colleges select student bodies that are on average worse than the average of people who don't go to college at all.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#32

Post by anon291 »

stevenalowe wrote: post #29

I'm all for informed consent - publish the data - but leave the choice to the individual. The goal of education is self-improvement, not necessarily/only money. The way student debt is (mis)managed is a different issue.

I agree with you on the goal of education. But whats the goal of government education subsidies?

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#33

Post by riddlemethat »

dataflow wrote: post #14

> If a program cannot show that it leaves its graduates financially better off than if they had never enrolled, it should not be underwritten by federal taxpayers Wouldn't this punish a huge number of students who struggle academically, by comparing them against better-achievers who simply skipped school? The two populations being compared are entirely different for a lot of schools. Just because the average student…

Do those students deserve lifelong debt they cannot discharge?

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#34

Post by theahura »

imo this is pants on head backwards. The whole problem with the current university system is that it has become exclusively a credentialing system that everyone uses to justify higher salaries. We’ve completely left the education part of it by the wayside…except for the liberal arts majors who are actually there just to learn! This rule is just encoding the existing tulip mania into federal law directly, by making it clear that the ONLY reason one goes to school is for future $$$

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#35

Post by zmgsabst »

EPWN3D wrote: post #5

Holy shit this is a great idea. I get the complaints about the arts, but colleges have enjoyed essentially unlimited patience for larding up their programs with extra fees, bullshit credit requirements, and more, for decades. I don't personally think that efficiency should be the primary concern of colleges, but it should be a concern, and it just plain hasn't been for ages. And that indulgence has been cloaked in sp…

Engineers are part of the petite bourgeoisie so they need to speak appropriately to the monied class.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#36

Post by CircuitSeuss »

Gut feeling here is that this is going to result in significantly lower higher ed enrollment, and therefore a less educated populace.

Less federal aid means fewer students can afford our insanely expensive educational system. This will pull up the ladder on the younger generations.

We do not teach history or ethics, or much in general to our pipeline welders, but they make bank for their hard labor. Meanwhile our well educated school teachers are paid nearly nothing. Both are needed (although I would argue teachers more so). This is not fundamentally an issue of failing educational institutions (although they may well be lacking), but an issue of societal incentives. The welder is paid by the oil corporation; the teacher by a dwindling percentage of your tax dollars.

We are living in the information age yet we have a crisis of education. We desperately a solution that increases both educational access and quality for everyone regardless of their career path. We need more, better, cheaper education. We need more incentives for an educated populace. This does not achieve that: in fact it aggravates the issue.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#37

Post by 3eb7988a1663 »

bruce511 wrote: post #28
dataflow wrote: post #14

> If a program cannot show that it leaves its graduates financially better off than if they had never enrolled, it should not be underwritten by federal taxpayers Wouldn't this punish a huge number of students who struggle academically, by comparing them against better-achievers who simply skipped school? The two populations being compared are entirely different for a lot of schools. Just because the average student…

It's much more complicated than that. >> If an undergraduate program's graduates don't earn more than workers who never went to college, Lots of things affect earnings. Obviously education is one of them, but it's not the only one. Location, economic environment, social status, personal network - all are factors. In other words comparing unequal things leads to unequal results. For example, a first-generation college…

Also unclear how it works for the PhD pipeline. If you roll straight from bachelor's to a doctorate program - you have abysmal earnings for the next 5-6 years of your life.

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#38

Post by theahura »

anon291 wrote: post #32
stevenalowe wrote: post #29

I'm all for informed consent - publish the data - but leave the choice to the individual. The goal of education is self-improvement, not necessarily/only money. The way student debt is (mis)managed is a different issue.

I agree with you on the goal of education. But whats the goal of government education subsidies?

> whats the goal of government education subsidies

a more educated populace is a public and civic good on its own terms. Public funding for education is maybe partially for economic returns, but is mostly because education is a necessary part of a functioning democracy and a necessary part of living a good fulfilling life

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#39

Post by theahura »

dataflow wrote: post #11
hankbond wrote: post #7

I feel like I have not really heard a compelling reason why student debt should not be dischargeable thru bankruptcy like (afaik) all other forms of debt. I am curious what the ramifications would be if higher education institutions had to (in some form) co-sign the debt being issued. I do get that not all education should be purely for economic reasons, but as an autodidact I feel that "learning for the sake of lear…

> I feel like I have not really heard a compelling reason why student debt should not be dischargeable thru bankruptcy like (afaik) all other forms of debt. According to Reddit [1] it was to discourage students from immediately declaring bankruptcy upon graduation. I don't see why they couldn't have put a time limit on it though, if that was the reason. Say you can't declare bankruptcy for 7 years after you leave sch…

> There is no evidence that students were actually doing this in any significant numbers.

premature optimization is the root of all evil. Seems like we shouldve actually shown that kids would do that before putting it into law

Re: Under federal rule, colleges must leave grads better off or lose financial aid

#40

Post by stevenalowe »

anon291 wrote: post #32
stevenalowe wrote: post #29

I'm all for informed consent - publish the data - but leave the choice to the individual. The goal of education is self-improvement, not necessarily/only money. The way student debt is (mis)managed is a different issue.

I agree with you on the goal of education. But whats the goal of government education subsidies?

To help people get the education that they want. Not pick winners/losers.
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