Live data from Hacker News

QuadRF can spot drones and see WiFi through my wall

jeffgeerling.com

241–249 of 249 posts

Re: QuadRF can spot drones and see WiFi through my wall

#241
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The army has one of these for sniper triangulation, and Boeing made a civilian version for optimizing sound dampening on the 787. I don’t know if they kept doing that on subsequent planes but I would expect so given how enthusiastic they were about being able to apply the weight budget to greater effect. You need really high clock rate sensing to differentiate the arrival time for sound from microphone arrays where t…

Given that it was McDonnell Douglas, sorry Boeing, they probably cut it.

Why don’t you give me a paper cut and pour lemon juice into it?

Re: QuadRF can spot drones and see WiFi through my wall

#242
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The army has one of these for sniper triangulation, and Boeing made a civilian version for optimizing sound dampening on the 787. I don’t know if they kept doing that on subsequent planes but I would expect so given how enthusiastic they were about being able to apply the weight budget to greater effect. You need really high clock rate sensing to differentiate the arrival time for sound from microphone arrays where t…

A nanosecond? The speed of sound at sea level in dry air is approximately 330m/s. So at say 3.3 kHz, the rough logarithmic middle of the audible spectrum, K=2π/lambda is 2π/0.1 m=20 π rad/m. A phase difference from a source difference k. ∆r would therefore likely be far more easily resolved than that for many physical ∆rs then, no?

Whups. Sound not light.

Sensors around 12.5 inches apart will be a millisecond separated. The actual device was from a fuzzy recollection of a picture I saw, was probably 700 microseconds across. But it was a sphere with many sensor so adjacent sensors were less than .1 ms of separation. They would have all the time in the world to calibrate such a thing.

My guess is rather than triangulation, they probably just find the two microphones with the widest phase separarion between their signals and draw a line back between them. I don’t actually know how much 3D sonic math they’re doing.

What I do recall is that it was tech that had recently reached the Cheap Enough to Use status at the time, which is about 20 years ago now?

Re: QuadRF can spot drones and see WiFi through my wall

#243

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you own your home I'd say you need a thermal imager. Just the ability to diagnose clogged pipes is priceless. https://x.com/ThermoInstagram/status/909356506059026432 Also for checking if microwaved food is ready.

+1 to thermal imager. I use mine to locate hot wires, heating and cooling gaps in the roof and around windows, car maintenance, the pizza oven, and its even sensitive enough to ‘see’ studs in the wall. Priceless on one occasion for finding leaks in the ceiling, which are notoriously hard to pinpoint.

> and its even sensitive enough to ‘see’ studs in the wall.

oooh my. My studfinder is always a little uncertain. I would love a second opinion.

Re: QuadRF can spot drones and see WiFi through my wall

#244
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Brute force wide band jamming would be easy too and would make hopping ineffective. Unless drones use self tuning antennas to overcome losses, they can't hop too far away from the antenna resonance frequency, which makes jammers job easier.

Jamming broadband is a lot more energy expense than frequency hopping. Orders of magnitude.

So what? It's not the airborne platform with limited energy and an explosive payload that needs to do the jamming, it's the ground-based targets.

However, as pointed out elsewhere in the thread a lot of these jamming arguments are academic because drones are either tethered with a fiberoptic cable and/or navigating autonomously.

Re: QuadRF can spot drones and see WiFi through my wall

#245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Pi alone... just today, someone over at Reddit spotted a Pi 5 being sold for 350$ [1]. [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/homelab/comments/1uso8u1/insanity/

Just like eBay, an Amazon listing for a certain price does not mean the item is actually /selling/ for that price -- especially with badly-coded dynamic re-pricing algorithms hooked into listings these days.

It's not completely out of line with other RPi sources listed on the RPi Foundation's own site. It's the same price as Adafruit for example but about $50 more than Mirco Center (though that is for instore pickup only so only for people lucky enough to live close to one).

Re: QuadRF can spot drones and see WiFi through my wall

#246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

of course? not working directly together maybe, but put them at right angles and you get depth without relying on signal amplitude analysis. did I misunderstand the question?

Something like this: https://youtu.be/YZkLQsv3huo

that adds a time dimenstion- not a spacial one. I'm no expert- but I'd expect a quadrf to not even need a time dimension for that case (rf transmitters are very rarely buried among noise in a spacial dimension.). my terms might be wrong, but I doubt the concepts are.

Re: QuadRF can spot drones and see WiFi through my wall

#247

Neat! SDRs have been available at reasonable price points for some time but the processing power to engage with wifi and other digital signals has been somewhat elusive. Assuming RAM can be purchased in the future, I think we might see a lot more prosumer-targeted devices for doing raw signal analysis in the future.

Do you have specific SDR in mind? I thought the v2 dongle doesnt have the range of Wifi? SDR is something Ive just recently want to learn to help me understand electromagnetism

You can look at wikipedia's list of SDRs[1] to see which can do wifi ranges now. I was more thinking about the future because you're right that it's a less common capability at the moment - but if you want a popular hobbiest platform you could check out the HackRF line[2].

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_software-defined_radio...

[2] https://greatscottgadgets.com/hackrf/

Re: QuadRF can spot drones and see WiFi through my wall

#248
post #95

QuadRF creator here. Happy to answer questions! We have a quick demo video as well: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=QvniJk3uNyA Along with a deeper dive video: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zdJ9Tbm8ALg We didn't give Jeff great direction on camera alignment calibration or setting the radio gain but he seemed to mostly figure it out. We're improving the UI based on his suggestions (it's open source so you can customize…

Nice project, congrats! Rx/TX isolation? Typical image rejection (dB)? Does it support hardware level timestamping to align tx and rx samples through soapy?

Tx/Rx isolation is about -35dB to -40dB depending on the Tx/Rx polarization selection. The QEC image rejection is about -50dBc in Rx, and about -40dBc in Tx (one-time cal, without background cal enabled). The Tx and Rx are perfectly synchronized. This allows you to easily do things like near-field 4x4 MIMO radar: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVqESemU_AI

Re: QuadRF can spot drones and see WiFi through my wall

#249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The really intriguing part is the "Custom ADC" here, seems like some kind of 1-bit ΣΔ oversampling ADC (704 MSPS?). Single differential transistor, and captured by FPGAs LVDS RX. Neat way to reduce cost and pin-count? But I think the typical FPGA clock tree has poor jitter performance. Not using the internal PLL(s) might help with spurs but the clock buffers are unavoidable. The documentation mentions it's likely fur…

For those confused about what this means, my understanding is this: when quantizing a wave you can use sampling rate to derive missing bits, so using even one bit can work if you do it fast enough, but jitter is a problem because it means the clock doesn't cleanly sync and it doesn't help non-quantization noise like those generated from switching supplies. Corrections welcome.

A good tutorial on sigma delta is https://www.analog.com/en/resources/technical-articles/sigma...

For a deeper dive, check out any of Richard Schreier's lectures.

Post reply on HN