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Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

smithsonianmag.com

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Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#71

Post by vorticalbox »

hunmernop wrote: post #70

Gas itself is poison. Just take a deep huff at the gas station. EVs are the only way to go. At least the pollution is localized, not down every inner city street with exhaust and other vapors.

Maybe you can enlighten me.

My question that once you mined the materials for the car + battery, shipped that somewhere to be built, then shipped that to be sold.

Then you have the added waste battery once it not longer hold enough charge. Is it actually better for the environment?

If we add all this extra pull on the grid we need to generate the power for that too.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#72

Post by tim-tday »

Fricken wrote: post #31

We've known about climate change for more than a century, but we're pigs, we don't care.

I think it’s important not to use the “we” word here.

1) Many people know and care. 2) some people lie for profit 3) other people are willfully ignorant and allow the liars keep at it because it’s more convenient.

And even among those who know and care there’s different amounts people are willing to do about it. I imagine you (who theoretically know and care) still drive, fly, use plastic, Eat foods grown with petroleum based fertilizers, buy products shipped long distances with petroleum. (As do I)

The key is to go after the liars so we can set sane policies based on findings of fact pursued in good faith.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#73

Post by kevstev »

vorticalbox wrote: post #71
hunmernop wrote: post #70

Gas itself is poison. Just take a deep huff at the gas station. EVs are the only way to go. At least the pollution is localized, not down every inner city street with exhaust and other vapors.

Maybe you can enlighten me. My question that once you mined the materials for the car + battery, shipped that somewhere to be built, then shipped that to be sold. Then you have the added waste battery once it not longer hold enough charge. Is it actually better for the environment? If we add all this extra pull on the grid we need to generate the power for that too.

Is this a real question? ICE cars have a battery too.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#74

Post by tim-tday »

dbg31415 wrote: post #17

The Man Who Accidentally Killed The Most People In History https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IV3dnLzthDA > This, my dear friend, is all I can at present recollect on the Subject. You will see by it, that the Opinion of this mischievous Effect from Lead, is at least above Sixty Years old; and you will observe with Concern how long a useful Truth may be known, and exist, before it is generally receiv'd and practis'd on.…

Elon might take the lead with his destruction of US aid. I heard an estimate that millions of unnecessary deaths may come of it.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#75

Post by edelbitter »

jghn wrote: post #53
phendrenad2 wrote: post #9

Same with cigarettes and asbestos. Everyone knew smokers had shorter lives, but the facts were suppressed because it was inconvenient. Everyone knew asbestos was dangerous, but they put it in every single house for decades because "fire was worse". And don't even get me started on DDT and teflon.

Asbestos gets a bit of a bad rap. There's an enormous difference from e.g. asbestos tiles and siding in a house vs loose clumps of insulation at mass scale in large factories and such. But at some point people decided that any asbestos was an immediate ticket to mesothelioma and had to eradicate it altogether.

I guess some forms of asbestos are fine to use in residential development.. as long as houses never burn or get damaged in earthquakes or suffer flood damage or need extensive renovations.. and as long as we do not care about some unimportant landscapes and river systems in (ideally, canada or russia or something of the sort) and all of its current and future inhabitants.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#76

Post by cucumber3732842 »

gilrain wrote: post #41
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #36

> countries where leaded gasoline was—or still is—used Note: it’s now banned for road vehicles everywhere [1]. [1] https://ourworldindata.org/data-insights/every-country-has-n... Algeria, 2021

…but is exhausting at volume from most small aircraft you see. I say sadly, as an aviation geek; we can do better!

There's an equal and opposite person who'll be screeching about safety if you try and monkey with the fuel.

That's exactly why this is taking so long. There's no free lunch.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#77

Post by jjk166 »

gertop wrote: post #51
flaunf221 wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The Most Dangerous Man Who Ever Lived The titles like annoy me to no end. Because Thomas Midgley was an engineer. Not overlord of General Motors. Not director. Not even a large shaholder. GM Leadership knew effects of TEL. And for decades traded everyone's health for their profits. Midgley is complicit, but he's just a small piece.

People who absolve engineers of all responsibility annoy me to no end. They're omnipresent on this forum and justify working for Facebook with things like "not my decision" or "someone else would do it" or "it's not that bad you just don't understand" or "I'm just following orders"

There is an important subtlety which is that engineers are not responsible for which technical challenges get solved, they are responsible for how those technical challenges are solved. An engineer's ethical obligation is not to avoid working on something that could be used in a harmful way, it is to prevent incidental harm from its deliberate usage. There's nothing unethical about working on a fuel additive to prevent engine knock; knowingly using a poisonous compound which is going to create immense public health problems to solve the problem was the sin.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#78

Post by cucumber3732842 »

ck2 wrote: post #42
mh- wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct. For others reading this though: virtually all piston-engine GA aircraft in the US today are still burning 100LL (leaded), and there are nearly 200,000 of them actively flying. There is a timeline to transition to UL, but very low collective confidence it'll happen by the 2030 goal. edit: to the commenter that fired off the reactionary reply and deleted it before I could help you. No, not because "[rich peopl…

the amount of lead that is acceptable is ZERO ZERO, thirty years ago when there was definitive proof is it forever and irreversible all lead exhaust aircraft should have been phased out a decade ago if not two decades ago if they cannot be converted again, there is no acceptable amount, imagine it being sprayed on you, your car, everywhere your body tries to process it like calcium and stores it forever how much dama…

It's mind boggling that people will screech about how the professionals say zero but then turn around and act like GA is a big deal, despite the fact that the same professionals will say that unless you have occupational exposure other vectors are going to be what dominate your lead level.

And by "mind boggling" I just mean a more polite way to say "condemnation of people's logic and reasoning abilities or honesty"

Yeah, sure we should get rid of GA leaded gas and we're working on it but it's not really a front burner priority because of how little it gets into people.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#79

Post by realusername »

vorticalbox wrote: post #71
hunmernop wrote: post #70

Gas itself is poison. Just take a deep huff at the gas station. EVs are the only way to go. At least the pollution is localized, not down every inner city street with exhaust and other vapors.

Maybe you can enlighten me. My question that once you mined the materials for the car + battery, shipped that somewhere to be built, then shipped that to be sold. Then you have the added waste battery once it not longer hold enough charge. Is it actually better for the environment? If we add all this extra pull on the grid we need to generate the power for that too.

Yeah it's actually better and it's not even close, provided that the cars make more than 50k km.

Petrol engines have terrible efficiency and that's also what makes the petrol numbers so bad.

Re: Leaded gas was a known poison the day it was invented (2016)

#80

Post by cyberax »

whatisthiseven wrote: post #55
cyberax wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think he really appreciated the danger of lead. Its acute toxicity was well-known, but not its chronic toxicity. And plenty of stuff is toxic in large quantities but harmless (or even vital!) in small quantities.

Then you don't know anything about the man. He intentionally inhaled large quantities of leaded gas to prove it was safe to on lockers. He would then spend months in Florida recovering from lead poisoning. He knew, and he didn't care.

Yeah, that kinda reinforces it. He knew about the acute effects, but not about cumulative damage.

I don't think that cumulative toxicity started entering the public mindset until well into the middle of the century.

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