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EU Parliament greenlights Chat Control 1.0

patrick-breyer.de

701–710 of 947 posts

Re: EU Parliament greenlights Chat Control 1.0

#701

Roberta Metsola's actions this week jeopardise the legitimacy of the EU project as a whole. It's clear that member countries use the EU as a blame-laundering mechanism to pass domestically unpopular laws, but the forcing of this vote under the urgency procedure that requires absolute majority to reject, on the last EP session before summer break is so blatant that it might awaken people that might've overlooked the s…

I think I'm one of those to whom you refer (except that I'm already "awake", or at least I like to think so). I'm normally pro-EU but this chat control is anathema to me. I'll be voting anti-EU in future I think.

> I'll be voting anti-EU in future I think.

You shouldn't go that far. Simply don't vote for the EPP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_People%27s_Party_Grou...) in your country. They are the driving force behind this. Other parties have mostly voted against this (depending on the country)

Re: EU Parliament greenlights Chat Control 1.0

#702
post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is an absurdly bad take. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/9/plenary-session... > Plenary sessions of Parliament take place 12 times per year in Strasbourg and last four days There are 48 days in sessions over a year. You're saying that it's too much to ask MEPs not to take holidays during those 48 days? Am I missing something here?

Most of the work of an MP is not sitting in plenary sessions looking bored. The normally important bits are in-between - committee and office work. This specific event here is an example of a plenary session suddenly being made extremely important by a procedural trick.

But it _was_ a plenary session, was it not? One of only 48? That someone could easily avoid scheduling a vacation during?

Re: EU Parliament greenlights Chat Control 1.0

#703
post #477

Stupid parliamentary trick: Hold the vote on the day before the summer break - ensuring that many people have already returned to their home countries. Then use a sort of "reverse" parliamentary trick: the default is that this legislation is accepted. They needed an absolute majority - not of voting members, but of all members - to reject it. Result: 314 against, 276 in favor, 17 abstentions, 113 absent The EU is wel…

It's "not on the way", really. It is explicitly designed not to be democratic in any meaningful sense from the very beginning. It is not even a secret: the council work is intentionally opaque so that the actual people responsible for all this horrible stuff cannot be held accountable by the public. This is explicitly stated to be a feature, justified that it helps it all be more technocratic and less populist. Serio…

Which would be fine, if it was just a trade union like originally designed. I really love the original idea of EU. I could even get behind more federation style, although trade union is vastly preferable for me - but I do understand people pushing for it.

Yet EU has overstepped that ages ago, and you can see that with SKG recently. The only tool we, as citizens, have to actually try to affect EC is effectively useless. EC can be wined and dined by lobbyists, including outside of official recorded proceedings(!) and can just ignore you.

Not to mention a lot of other systems in EU were made with idea that countries would operate for their own best interest, and that interest was aligned for every member state:

- Shared energy market, which was crashed by Germany ideologically decommissioning nuclear power plants in middle of energy crisis.

- Free movement of people within Schengen area - which is crashed by countries taking mass of immigrants which they think they need(i don't live there so i won't judge), but then they can move around whole of the area - including the countries with vastly stricter regulations for migration.

- Digital euro as a backdoor to enforce transition to euro across the whole area, limiting the ways in which member states can dictate their own monetary policy. Digital euro must be accepted by all vendors across EU - even in the countries not using euro at all.

And that's ignoring slippery slope towards CDBC with expiration date.

- erosion of free speech and constant doublethink language, and noticing flaws in EU is undemocratic/euroskeptical(biggest sin possible) - even if it comes from "how to improve EU" point of view. or even if one points out that EU itself isn't democratic.

- double loyalty in case of politicians where there's a conflict between national and European interest. Do you pursue national benefit, or do you go against it in such cases and hop onto EU track - where there are plenty of unelected positions?

and also double loyalty in case of EC members - they should pursue good of all EU by their own charter, but there's no punishment nor anything systemic to discourage them from abusing their power and pursuing national interests.

All of those are minor or major flaws that slowly fracture EU. And by this point I don't think the system can be reformed.

Re: EU Parliament greenlights Chat Control 1.0

#704
post #674

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

This is such a simpleton thing to say. All I know is I am glad I am childfree and don't have to deal with this.

if you child breaks the law and are under the age of an adult you as a parent are responsible, as a parent you are responsible to feed, wash, look after, keep dangerous stuff like medicine out of reach, if you live in a place that allows gun you have to keep that away too.

but suddenly because its a screen suddenly that responsibility to parent goes away?

i'm not trying to provoke I simple don't understand the other side of the argument.

Re: EU Parliament greenlights Chat Control 1.0

#705
post #58
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slippery slope is not a "fallacy" by default. It can be occasionally but its a perfectly reasonably argument in plenty of cases.

It is a fallacy by default. The existence and slipperiness of the slope must be justified to make it not a fallacy.

In plenty of cases it's absolutely self evident (especially when there are plenty of historical precedents for similar or analogous situations).

Yes you can get involved in extended arguments with people arguing in bad faith or whose world view is fundamentally incompatible with your but that's usually just a waste of time (I mean you wouldn't argue with Nazis either just the same as with people trying to institute a Stasi style surveillance apparatus through slow boiling)

Re: EU Parliament greenlights Chat Control 1.0

#707
post #433

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is shocking that 276 members of parliament would vote to support this. Are so many so naive? Or being paid off? There are a lot of countries in the EU that aren't shining beacons of democracy. The EU makes sense as an economic block but some of the countries in it are politically unaligned with what people think of when they think of the EU.

You really should check out the list of voters, you will be surprised who exactly voted "yes". The list can be found here: https://www.thatprivacyguy.com/blog/chat-control-the-415-who...

That is not the full list, plenty of votes are missing.

This one is more complete: https://howtheyvote.eu/votes/195338

Re: EU Parliament greenlights Chat Control 1.0

#708

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody is automatically in favor. What are you talking about, that’s not how it worked at all.

Make a "reverse vote" to reject passing a law = abstentions mean you don't reject passing the law = abstentions mean you support passing the law

This has got to be rejected by any court that has not been completely corrupted.

Re: EU Parliament greenlights Chat Control 1.0

#709

Stupid parliamentary trick: Hold the vote on the day before the summer break - ensuring that many people have already returned to their home countries. Then use a sort of "reverse" parliamentary trick: the default is that this legislation is accepted. They needed an absolute majority - not of voting members, but of all members - to reject it. Result: 314 against, 276 in favor, 17 abstentions, 113 absent The EU is wel…

> It is shocking that 276 members of parliament would vote to support this. Are so many so naive? Or being paid off? There are a lot of countries in the EU that aren't shining beacons of democracy. The EU makes sense as an economic block but some of the countries in it are politically unaligned with what people think of when they think of the EU.

https://fightchatcontrol.eu/ has a better way to sort by country and political party so you can see who woted for what. It is painful to see politicians I voted for supporting this, even after I have sent them a few emails. Honestly, based on the results from my country, in the upcomming euro-elections, I am seriously considering voting alt-right.

Re: EU Parliament greenlights Chat Control 1.0

#710
post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Politicians can take vacations. Many things went wrong here but this ain't it.

This is an absurdly bad take. https://www.europarl.europa.eu/news/en/faq/9/plenary-session... > Plenary sessions of Parliament take place 12 times per year in Strasbourg and last four days There are 48 days in sessions over a year. You're saying that it's too much to ask MEPs not to take holidays during those 48 days? Am I missing something here?

Do you those 48 days are the total number of working hours these MEPs have? Of course not. Something always needs to give when going on vacation. And usually missing a a plenary session is not weird or the end of the world. The problem here is that in this case the rules were abused.
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