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My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

andrewkelley.me

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Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#291

Post by orangedog »

dofm wrote: post #285
lins1909 wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's kind of strange to not engage with any of the points made in the article. Unlike you, I don't think the post makes them look childish at all. I think it raises a lot of valid points and makes me want to use Zig more.

FWIW I was really interested in Zig and now I see that its lead developer is thin-skinned and bitter and has confused minimal criticism of his project with an attack on his person. This is such a bad look and it's also flatly self-contradictory. He spends time in his conclusion asserting he doesn't have any personal criticisms of Jarred but he's fully happy to claim, reframe and repeat everyone else's, even criticism…

This entire thread puts me out on devs. I stuns me that there are this many people who either excuse or cheer on being hateful. Wanting to use a project becaues the author was this rude....what?

Just a complete lack of emotional intelligence. You do not treat people like this.

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#292

Post by dpatterbee »

krautsauer wrote: post #240
dataflow wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's kind of strange to not engage with any of the points made in the article. Unlike you, I don't think the post makes them look childish at all. I think it raises a lot of valid points and makes me want to use Zig more. I know nothing about the drama here other than what's in the blog post, but these feel more like unnecessarily public personal attacks which don't really reflect well: - a stinky manager. Poor com…

> I actually don't have any personal criticisms of Jarred. was the cherry on top.

Those are not personal criticisms, those are all professional criticisms. There are many people who don't seem to know the different between work and life and so they may conflate the two, but to me it's pretty obvious.

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#293

Post by lifthrasiir »

uludag wrote: post #263
lins1909 wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Uhm, I'm very confused by the last part of your comment. You put it into an LLM to...understand the tone? Is that supposed to convince me of something?

Very weird indeed. People must not realize that you can completely change the response you get back from an LLM by how you ask questions. Any bias can implicitly be implanted in the question you ask and drastically modify the response. This is what I got Gemini to say about the article: The author’s tone in this piece can be described as brutally candid, deeply relieved, and unapologetically sarcastic. very different…

Personally I don't think that matters, because the article is problematic enough when it can be read like ad hominem. Assuming that the question was phrased reasonably neutrally (but not necessarily free of hidden biases), the fact that LLM concluded so is an enough evidence here. Also as a non-LLM data point, I felt roughly same (especially the "softening" bit).

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#294

Post by orangedog »

27183 wrote: post #269
ModernMech wrote: post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Those people talked to each other. Everybody talked to everybody. The grapevine was large and healthy and full of juicy grapes, and all those grapes contained the juice of the same message: Jarred was a stinky manager. There’s a big gap between corpo speak and “stinky manager”. That’s nowhere close to professional writing. And he’s not giving us his personal opinion, Kelley is telling us the conclusion of the “grap…

[flagged]

He's not operating personally as the leader of a major project.

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#295

Post by jazzypants »

ModernMech wrote: post #204
grahar64 wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think you are using that right. Saying someone is bringing a bad vibe to your project, as the point he has a bad vibe is just stating the conclusion. Like if someone calls you a bad programmer and doesn't hire you as a programmer, isn't ad hominem

Right I think the correct term is “character assassination”. It starts by calling him a novice, goes on to call him a “stinky manager”, and then lands the deepest cut possible in this profession: his code sucks. At least Kelley thanked him for his money. This is not refreshing, I usually expect better from Kelley. The best move would have been to say nothing at all except “best of luck, Zig will miss him but”. Now al…

Do you think that all ziglings refuse to write idiomatic code, have public fights with the language maintainers, and then write giant blog posts about how they're ditching the language because it just isn't good enough?

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#296

Post by elktown »

Havoc wrote: post #270
vitorfblima wrote: post #250

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm quite confused by this. Is calling someone a "stinky manager" a personal attack? It's funny that we can't differentiate the person from his "job". I work with some shitty managers, but I don't hold it against them on a personal level...

Don’t think there is a clear line to draw as to where the person stops and the professional performance starts when it comes to management because on soft skill it is inherently driven by personal attributes. It’s a bit like a good salesman exudes likeability - it’s integral to the performance of the job and part of the person. He may well be a shit manager. I have no idea. Either way it’s not something you casually…

[flagged]

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#297

Post by 27183 »

preommr wrote: post #121

There are astute comments about the post's tone elsewhere in this thread[0] But this killed my hopes for Zig. The drama is fun, and Andrew is maybe even admirable in his earnest, but this just isn't the kind of professionalism needed for a serious project. I know that's boring and uninspired, but that's what I want my tech stack and it's management to be. Also, maybe Jarred was a net negative, but bun was also a real…

> And I am sorry, but adoption and reaching critical mass is an important part of a serious programming language.

Would you argue that Chez Scheme (to pick a random example) isn't a "serious programming language"? And I am sorry, but the assumption that "explosive growth" in the venture capital sense is somehow necessary for "success" is cancer.

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#298

Post by iigijshaba »

adwn wrote: post #223
cyber1 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For 99.99% of cases, you're reading and writing this under an operating system whose kernel is written in a language without send/sync, and inside a browser that also largely written in languages without send/sync, because those systems are fundamentally well designed. So instead of fixing the bugs and rethinking the architecture, the author of Bun decided to transpile almost the entire codebase from Zig to Rust with…

Those systems you're alluding to received ungodly amounts of work and resources, vastly more than most projects can ever hope for, and yet they're still full of holes and security exploits. You're unwittingly making a great argument against using C, C++ – or Zig.

Those systems are primarily written in C or C++-but-in-C-style, right? Without exploiting RAII among other features, as Jarred mentioned that he liked in Rust. While Rust took RAII from C++.

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#299

Post by orangedog »

conartist6 wrote: post #286
embedding-shape wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> AI did steal open source knowledge It's really sad to see my fellow FOSS enthusiasts adopt this very strange vocabulary from the anti-pirate people. No, no one has stolen anything, the knowledge is still out there. No, you cannot even "shameless copy" from something that is asking the world to copy from it. Literally the point for me and others is that what we put out can be used by anyone for anything, that's why…

Fine, they're leeches. My problem is that if everyone behaved as selfishly as they do, there would be no more nice things for anyone.

I just think you're fighting a losing battle. I'm pretty apathetic about it because I've never wanted to do anything but give away my stuff anyway. It only has value in my/your head most of the time.

I think how deeply you care about this and the way you castigate other people is unhealthy and it is critical for your own well-being that you come to terms with it.

Re: My thoughts on the Bun Rust rewrite

#300

Post by bearead »

tuckwat wrote: post #110
hazn wrote: post #39

Despite stated otherwise in the post, this is a personal attack. Anyway, let's try to discuss something more technical: I predict Zig will lose steam, and in 2027, will lose relevance: 1) It's hardcore Anti-AI 2) It's moved to Codeberg 3) It doesn't have the momentum to sustain the disadvantages of these two decisions The project will in max 2 years make a blog post, not admitting to their mistakes, telling themselve…

4) It's led by an emotionally unintelligent individual who will personally attack you for choosing alternative products.

wow this is the most professional comment I've ever seen in this thread.
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