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Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

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Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#271

Post by RamblingCTO »

zuzululu wrote: post #78

Talked to a fellow European coworker recently and they seem very supportive of chat control and that it was necessary to stop "far right nationalism" and then I pressed on for them describe what it is and they got angry and refused to clarify. I think this is a good snapshot of where Europe is right now that chat controls have become politically weaponized and people who are supportive of it seem clueless as to what…

you're right, the US is totally freedom and stuff. no problemo that you gotta show your social media accounts when entering, so you can get checked for alignment with the regime. no problem at all. both suck atm, that's the truth

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#272

Post by u8080 »

harrisoned wrote: post #220
watwut wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is existing regulation being extended. It allows sites to scan messages. Not mandates. These kind of responses is why it is hard to trust privacy advocates on HN. They are high on rhetorics, but half the time dont know what they are talking about.

I hope I'm being pessimistic about that. If I'm wrong, great. I did saw it was an extension of the 1.0. To my understanding, "allows to scan" can also mean enabling a pipeline for accepting requests of scanning lawful content because, well, they can. In practice, it creates a mechanism to crawl people's information because when they feel like. While the law do make it explicit that this 'allowance' should not be used…

Sorry for copypaste, but I still hope people will see true intentions of govt.

Just a recap how it happened in Russia:

1. First, year ~2015 legal framework was created under disguise of banning pirated media(specifically torrents.ru)(legislative push). State-wide DNS ban introduced. Very easy to circumvent via quering 8.8.8.8

2. Then, having legal basis, govt included extra stuff in banned list(casinos, terrorist orgs, etc)(executive push). IP bans introduced, applied very carefully.

3. Legal expanded allowing govt to ban specific media on very vague criterias(legislative push). IP blocks tried on some large websites. DPI hardware mandated to be installed by ISPs to filter by HTTPS SNI(executive push).

4. At ~2019 Roskomnadzor(RKN) created, special govt entity which enforces bans without court orders(legislative push).

5. ~2021 sites become banned if they are not filtering content by Russian laws by request of RKN(executive push). VPN services were obligated to also DPI-filter traffic(legislative push).

6. ~2023 Crackdown on VPN started(executive push). Popular commercial services were IP-banned, OpenVPN and IPSec connections selectively degraded by DPI.

7. ~2025 Heavy VPN filtering(vless, wireguard, etc) introduced(executive push). Performance of certain sites were degraded(youtube, twitter, etc).

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#273

Post by advisedwang »

StrLght wrote: post #228
advisedwang wrote: post #214

So many comments about the EU constantly re-trying the same law with minor tweaks, and about how legislatures do this in general. I wanted to provide an explanation for this behaviour. The way legislation is expected to proceed in countries with parliamentary systems, especially with strong civil services, is that 1) a problem is identified. This can be the civil service detecting it on their own, petitioning from gr…

> But the problem still exists, and the issue is still on the agenda. It's still a priority to solve. People are pushing back on this every single time. Maybe it's time legislators read the room instead? Is there a step for this too?

Until legislators fear loosing their seats more than they desire a policy, they're not going listen to the people. That's why political manovering, lobbying, activism etc are part of the political process.

It's even worse for places like the EU that have a strong civil service or with a branch like the EC that isn't elected, because the processes above are very insulated from the general public

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#274

Post by CrisMystik »

mr_toad wrote: post #223
advisedwang wrote: post #214

So many comments about the EU constantly re-trying the same law with minor tweaks, and about how legislatures do this in general. I wanted to provide an explanation for this behaviour. The way legislation is expected to proceed in countries with parliamentary systems, especially with strong civil services, is that 1) a problem is identified. This can be the civil service detecting it on their own, petitioning from gr…

Step 6 is entirely missing in the EU. The parliament doesn’t form a committee to debate and perhaps refine the law, it just votes on what is put before it.

The Parliament has many committees that do exactly what you're saying, while the Council meets in various configurations of national ministers depending on the law being voted on

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#275

Post by clear-octopus »

Balinares wrote: post #54
belowavgiq wrote: post #3

"The procedure now chosen gives the proponents of Chat Control a significant tactical advantage. Since the law is in its second reading, an absolute majority of 361 votes of all parliament members is required for amendments or a renewed rejection on Thursday. In contrast, a simple majority of the MEPs present is sufficient for the other side. As many parliamentarians have historically already departed by the last day…

> So, if I'm reading this correctly, Chat Control [2.0, implied] is bound to become law? Nope. This is bad, but not THAT bad. This is an extension of the existing Chat Control 1.0, which was set to expire (or maybe already has, I didn't keep track). AIUI it gives chat companies permission to scan user chats for illicit content, but does not mandate it. This is bad, but it's not the much worse still Chat Control 2.0 t…

[dead]

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#276

Post by NeuNeurosis »

inigyou wrote: post #239
AngryData wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because they shouldn't be scanning private messages indiscriminately no matter for what. Lets rephrase it and look at it from "private companies will scan their users private messages for evidence of crimes and report people to police." Where is the limit here? I think it is naive to assume this will stop at csam and will soon be used as a judicial bludgen to extort random citizens for petty crimes that in any other…

Has this happened before? The NSA wiretaps all phone calls - do they extort random citizens for petty crimes that in any other case nobody would ever know or care about? Microsoft has your browsing history - we know this because of the recently unsealed court case. Do they do it? Facebook already ignores this law and scans the content of all private messages anyway. Are they doing what you predicted? I don't think ev…

So you specifically are rebutting the petty crimes however the real risk is leverage that the government and orgs gain by having asymmetrical access to information that no one else does at scale. This can be used for a variety of reasons but see below some examples of internal corruption by employees and what I would argue is the exact misuse of this power to gain political leverage. https://www.reuters.com/article/world/uk/nsa-staff-used-spy-... https://www.aclu.org/news/national-security/prospect-blackma...

These are what leaked. Which is to say that it is very naive to assume that large powerful organization is not going to use its power for gain.

Microsoft and Facebook both use the scanning to network your connections and to build profiles of users to better manipulate your behavior. Hence the Cambridge Analytica Scandal let alone what we dont know about.

Why hand over power to these super powerful and large orgs? What do we supposedly gain as a society? I mean look at flock and Palantir, all it takes is for the political winds to change and the power is there because of these bills.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#279

Post by throw1234567891 »

inigyou wrote: post #198
rightbyte wrote: post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A good reason might be that you don't want your private messages to be scanned by any third party in a conversation...

Then don't send them over Facebook - with or without this law

Yeah, or by email, or text message.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#280

Post by inigyou »

NeuNeurosis wrote: post #276
inigyou wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Has this happened before? The NSA wiretaps all phone calls - do they extort random citizens for petty crimes that in any other case nobody would ever know or care about? Microsoft has your browsing history - we know this because of the recently unsealed court case. Do they do it? Facebook already ignores this law and scans the content of all private messages anyway. Are they doing what you predicted? I don't think ev…

So you specifically are rebutting the petty crimes however the real risk is leverage that the government and orgs gain by having asymmetrical access to information that no one else does at scale. This can be used for a variety of reasons but see below some examples of internal corruption by employees and what I would argue is the exact misuse of this power to gain political leverage. https://www.reuters.com/article/w…

Yeah it's a risk. But if X is happening right now and Y is not happening and you claim Y happens whenever X does, you really need to explain why the current situation is different or your argument falls apart.
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