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Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

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Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#191

Post by rightbyte »

inigyou wrote: post #185
dgellow wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> chat Control 1.0 is a battle that was already lost That’s not true, the previous instance of it expired, and the parliament rejected it. It wasn’t already lost, it was actually a win for people against the proposal

I can't actually think of a good reason that the law should prohibit a company from having the option to automatically scan private messages for CSAM. Can you? Certain implementations may fall afoul of data protection laws however.

A good reason might be that you don't want your private messages to be scanned by any third party in a conversation...

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#192

Post by chrystalkey »

shevy-java wrote: post #122
chrystalkey wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have apparently no idea what an actual dictatorship is

No, I think the term applies very well. That there are worse dictatorships does not really nullify the statement. Even "democracies" have death penalties and commit to genocide. See the USA as an example here. One can always reason that there are worse countries in this regard - nobody rejects that either. We need to have a much more nuanced view on democracy. The EU presently is not one.

I think you mean something different than I when we think of dictatorships. I agree in being unhappy with this decision and maneuvering, but we do have to keep a watch out for actual, in the political sense, dictatorships and not mix them up with other concerns.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#193

Post by debugnik »

charcircuit wrote: post #186
ryandrake wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They only have to win once. You have to win every time.

To repeal it you only need to win once too.

Not quite, the EU parliament can't propose new laws nor repeal existing ones, only amend them and vote on proposals from the commission.

The Stop Killing Games campaign, for example, has noticed that the EU commission keeps repeating lobbyist lies and has no expectations of new laws actually passing, so they're focusing on amending existing law through parliament.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#194

Post by AngryData »

inigyou wrote: post #185
dgellow wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> chat Control 1.0 is a battle that was already lost That’s not true, the previous instance of it expired, and the parliament rejected it. It wasn’t already lost, it was actually a win for people against the proposal

I can't actually think of a good reason that the law should prohibit a company from having the option to automatically scan private messages for CSAM. Can you? Certain implementations may fall afoul of data protection laws however.

Because they shouldn't be scanning private messages indiscriminately no matter for what. Lets rephrase it and look at it from "private companies will scan their users private messages for evidence of crimes and report people to police." Where is the limit here? I think it is naive to assume this will stop at csam and will soon be used as a judicial bludgen to extort random citizens for petty crimes that in any other case nobody would ever care or know about.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#195

Post by chrystalkey »

skeptic_ai wrote: post #18
chrystalkey wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You have apparently no idea what an actual dictatorship is

Tell me the difference please. Which country we compare to?

What? Tell me the similarities :) There is not strong-willed, controlling figure or imposed ideology, the financial institutions are fairly independent, in general journalism is relatively free to choose topics, the federal states can be pretty independent from the central power if they choose to do so, and all the rest I already wrote in a sister comment. Note I did not compare this to any country, just applying criteria for dictatorships.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#196

Post by watwut »

harrisoned wrote: post #8

Even if you are not in the EU, this will affect you. Some countries really like to copy such regulations from others. Once services starts complying, other governments will go like "if you did for them, you can do it for us, right? so it's not technically impossible", and things only get worse from there. Not all services will simply block the EU as well, which would be better to send a stronger message if approved.…

This is existing regulation being extended. It allows sites to scan messages. Not mandates.

These kind of responses is why it is hard to trust privacy advocates on HN. They are high on rhetorics, but half the time dont know what they are talking about.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#197

Post by inigyou »

AngryData wrote: post #194
inigyou wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't actually think of a good reason that the law should prohibit a company from having the option to automatically scan private messages for CSAM. Can you? Certain implementations may fall afoul of data protection laws however.

Because they shouldn't be scanning private messages indiscriminately no matter for what. Lets rephrase it and look at it from "private companies will scan their users private messages for evidence of crimes and report people to police." Where is the limit here? I think it is naive to assume this will stop at csam and will soon be used as a judicial bludgen to extort random citizens for petty crimes that in any other…

It says they may do that. It doesn't say they have to - we all know which messengers are the secure ones.

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#198

Post by inigyou »

rightbyte wrote: post #191
inigyou wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't actually think of a good reason that the law should prohibit a company from having the option to automatically scan private messages for CSAM. Can you? Certain implementations may fall afoul of data protection laws however.

A good reason might be that you don't want your private messages to be scanned by any third party in a conversation...

Then don't send them over Facebook - with or without this law

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#199

Post by Jblx2 »

dgellow wrote: post #161
vslira wrote: post #154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If the EU as a system has an undemocratic backdoor it's descriptively correct to call it undemocratic. Not to play too hard on the HN user stereotype, but you wouldn't call a computer system that is mostly secure other than a known privilege escalation exploit secure, would you?

Every single democratic system relies on norms at some level. Democratic isn’t a boolean flag. When the French prime minister is using the 49-3 rule to bypass the parliament that’s undemocratic, that doesn’t make the system itself undemocratic. When a US president is using an executive order to pass a law that’s undemocratic, that doesn’t make the system itself undemocratic. Here the maneuver goes against the spirit…

>When a US president is using an executive order to pass a law

An executive order isn't a law. It is an instruction for an executive branch agency or committee.

https://www.federalregister.gov/presidential-documents/execu...

Re: Chat Control passed first round in EU Parliament

#200

Post by debugnik »

tzs wrote: post #158
poly2it wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The vast majority (72%) of European citizens are opposed to Chat control. Regardless, the proposal has been brought up and rejected relentlessly, mostly by action of politicians (commissioners) who are not directly elected to begin with. We have more than enough reasons to be furious. https://www.patrick-breyer.de/en/poll-72-of-citizens-oppose-...

That's talking about a different Chat Control that has mandatory scanning. This is talking about an older Chat Control that allowed sites to scan on their own without getting in trouble due to privacy laws, which has been in effect but recently expired. The thing passing now is reauthorizing that older law.

We already had two votes to renew it before it expired, and both failed. The second one was forced by the EPP immediately after the first, and then they voted against it too because they failed to amend it even stronger before the vote.
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