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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#761

Post by [deleted] »

customguy wrote: post #753
mstaoru wrote: post #745

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me play a bit of devil's advocate here. This is not what I really think but it's a point that has merit. Germany is in deep demographic and economic crisis, mostly due to talent shortage. If it has any ambition to maintain being #3 economy (by GDP), while simultaneously paying cushy pensions to a growing pool of retirees, it must either very quickly build talent (but it has a very limited pool due to demographic)…

That's like Germans moving to a poor country and being annoying to the waiter, then going "do you want my money or not?" When it comes to respecting someone -- which is what I'm talking about -- that just makes it worse. > Germany is in deep demographic and economic crisis, mostly due to talent shortage. If it has any ambition to maintain being #3 economy Countries don't have aims or ambitions, people in them do. If…

[deleted]

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#762

Post by dofm »

customguy wrote: post #749
xienze wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Races don't exist on any biological level. You sure about that? https://www.nmdp.org/get-involved/join-the-registry/ethnicit... > Finding the right donor for a patient isn’t simple. Donors and patients are matched largely based on genes called human leukocyte antigens (HLAs). These genes code for proteins—or markers—found on most of the cells in your body. When it comes to matching HLA types, a patient’s ethnic bac…

That article doesn't mention the word "race" once. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization) > there is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptions of race are untenable Any educated person with access to the internet who never was even curious about this I'm suspicious of. If you don't arrive at it by the thought experiments a bored teenager might do, it takes like 5 mi…

This whole discussion is exhausting, isn't it, but it worries me because it seems we have fully gone backwards if people are back to saying "OK biologically you are of the black race, we can prove it".

Only scientific racists think this.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#763

Post by simianwords »

dofm wrote: post #756
simianwords wrote: post #612

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to keep suggesting that boundaries have to be perfect for categories to exist. This is not the case. White colour and dark colour exist as categories yet are blurry. Yet no sane person suggests colours don’t exist. There’s no sharp boundary between a hill and a mountain. There’s no sharp boundary between dark and white colours. There’s no sharp boundary between male and female either at the edge cases when y…

I am not pretending that sociological concepts of race don’t exist. I am saying that it is clear from scientific consensus that biological, genetic race does not exist. If it did, as I keep saying, “white” and “black” would not be biological races. That is actually not plausible. It’s scientific racism to claim it is.

What even is biological race? Race as used sociologically has a biological basis. And normal people think that race is real, the same way colour is real.

You have said this

> Races don't exist on any biological level

And it is completely untrue. Sociological race does exist at a biological level. DNA of blacks and whites are different.

Just like wavelength emitted by black and white colours are different.

The survey asked whether race is real - of course race is. Just like colour is real.

White and black are not biological races but words used to describe real clusters of people, even if its lossy. In the entire conversation, you have made a complete strawman, as if people are talking about some made up definition of biological race you have come up with and then claim that "ha that made up definition is not real!"

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#764

Post by cainxinth »

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

> I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them.

That is true of every country.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#765

Post by simianwords »

customguy wrote: post #749
xienze wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Races don't exist on any biological level. You sure about that? https://www.nmdp.org/get-involved/join-the-registry/ethnicit... > Finding the right donor for a patient isn’t simple. Donors and patients are matched largely based on genes called human leukocyte antigens (HLAs). These genes code for proteins—or markers—found on most of the cells in your body. When it comes to matching HLA types, a patient’s ethnic bac…

That article doesn't mention the word "race" once. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization) > there is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptions of race are untenable Any educated person with access to the internet who never was even curious about this I'm suspicious of. If you don't arrive at it by the thought experiments a bored teenager might do, it takes like 5 mi…

But like... no one claims there's some essentialist and typological race. Everyone knows that it is lossy but a real category. Whom are you attacking here?

Any educated person knows that there's no one to one mapping between DNA and how the word "Asian" is used. There's a good predictive power for DNA and a high correlation. But that's how language works.

Between a "hill" and a "mountain", there's no concrete boundary. So even this is not essentialist. But no educated person would claim that hills and mountains don't exist as categories.

I think this is what you have done: you want to signal that you are against racism. So you end up using a strawman definition of race and then deny that race as a category itself doesn't exist.

Advice: don't create this strawman. Argue against the real thing: race is a category albeit a fuzzy one that humans use through language and this category has a biological basis.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#766

Post by dofm »

simianwords wrote: post #763
dofm wrote: post #756

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not pretending that sociological concepts of race don’t exist. I am saying that it is clear from scientific consensus that biological, genetic race does not exist. If it did, as I keep saying, “white” and “black” would not be biological races. That is actually not plausible. It’s scientific racism to claim it is.

What even is biological race? Race as used sociologically has a biological basis. And normal people think that race is real, the same way colour is real. You have said this > Races don't exist on any biological level And it is completely untrue. Sociological race does exist at a biological level. DNA of blacks and whites are different. Just like wavelength emitted by black and white colours are different. The survey…

https://bioanth.org/about/aaba-statement-on-race-racism/

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#767

Post by simianwords »

xienze wrote: post #758
customguy wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article doesn't mention the word "race" once. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization) > there is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptions of race are untenable Any educated person with access to the internet who never was even curious about this I'm suspicious of. If you don't arrive at it by the thought experiments a bored teenager might do, it takes like 5 mi…

> That article doesn't mention the word "race" once. Are you being intentionally obtuse by pretending ethnicity and race can't be used interchangeably on a broad level? The entire point of requiring "diversity in bone marrow donation" is that you can't just take bone marrow from an ethnically caucasian ("white" in racial classification terms) and expect the transfer to be successful for an African American person ("b…

I think this discussion won't be productive because for them, dismissing race as a concept is a way to combat racism itself and prove higher moral ground.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#768

Post by dofm »

simianwords wrote: post #765
customguy wrote: post #749

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That article doesn't mention the word "race" once. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Race_(human_categorization) > there is a broad scientific agreement that essentialist and typological conceptions of race are untenable Any educated person with access to the internet who never was even curious about this I'm suspicious of. If you don't arrive at it by the thought experiments a bored teenager might do, it takes like 5 mi…

But like... no one claims there's some essentialist and typological race. Everyone knows that it is lossy but a real category. Whom are you attacking here? Any educated person knows that there's no one to one mapping between DNA and how the word "Asian" is used. There's a good predictive power for DNA and a high correlation. But that's how language works. Between a "hill" and a "mountain", there's no concrete boundar…

> Advice: don't create this strawman. Argue against the real thing: race is a category albeit a fuzzy one that humans use through language and this category has a biological basis.

Advice: the above is essentially indistinguishable from the false scientific argumentation that white supremacists use to make their case. It has no meaningful basis in science.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#769

Post by simianwords »

dofm wrote: post #766
simianwords wrote: post #763

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What even is biological race? Race as used sociologically has a biological basis. And normal people think that race is real, the same way colour is real. You have said this > Races don't exist on any biological level And it is completely untrue. Sociological race does exist at a biological level. DNA of blacks and whites are different. Just like wavelength emitted by black and white colours are different. The survey…

https://bioanth.org/about/aaba-statement-on-race-racism/

Your article:

>race has become a social reality that structures societies and how we experience the world. In this regard, race is real, as is racism, and both have real biological consequences

You said

> Races don't exist on any biological level

My suggestion: separate your moral claims and virtues from objective facts. I think you are spiralling into a maze of arguments that you yourself can't keep up with.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#770

Post by Otterly99 »

The situation is kind of similar in my country (France).

My partner and I lived together in Czech Republic for 7 years where I was working as a scientist (EU to EU, pretty much no paperwork involved). She is american and obtained a "partner of EU citizen" long stay permit. We decided to move back to France and now we have to deal with bureaucracy and it is exhausting.

There are many paths by which an non-EU citizen can get residency in europe and it includes:

- Student visa (9 months, needs to apply long in advance) - Entrepreneur (need to pitch a business, needs 30k€ of savings) - Refugee - Married (the easiest one) - Family member of EU citizen (only applies when the EU citizen is not native to the country you apply to) - Family member of native citizen

We had to apply to the last one, because we only have a civil union (it's a french thing called PACS and it's not recognized as a "proper" union for permits).

We also needed to prove that we had lived together for more than a year (which we also had to do in Czech Republic) so that she could get her one year permit. The fees are opaque (the website says 350€ of tax + 100 € of processing fee but the final bill was 650€). Any document must be translated (cost us around 1000€) and official documents must be verified by apostille (which we learned when we celebrated our civil union in at the french embassy in Czech Republic).

At the end of her permit, she will need to validate an A2 level of profciency in french to apply for a multi year permit (2 to 4 years). Once she has lived 5 years here, she can apply for a permanent residency if she has a B2 level, pass a civil exam and show proofs of involvement in civic life.

All of this to say that the requirements to immigrate in Europe require either a lot of money or a lot of dedication. This really changed my view on the whole "Europe has free border, anybody can get in to steal our job" rhetoric.

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