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Every new car sold in the European Union must include a driver monitoring camera

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Re: Every new car sold in the European Union must include a driver monitoring camera

#822
post #750

It boggles my mind that some people are more concerned how much fun driving a car is supposed to be vs 60 people dying in the EU in car accidents every day. If 60 people died because an airplane falls of the sky every day we wouldn't shrugg that off either, wouldn't we? And a voice that tells you to keep your eyes on the road when going 200 on the autobahn is one of the least offensive intervention I can think of.

What you're doing now is taking a reasonable standard when going 200 on the autobahn and applying it everywhere else. And you don't see any problem with this because... think of the kids?

That's not how you optimize an important metric. At all. You look a how exactly those 60 people die and make targeted interventions with numbers backing them up. Otherwise best case you're doing security theatre, and most likely fuck things up with second order effects. Like things beeping all the time and distracting people - I already can't tell why my car is beeping at me.

Re: Every new car sold in the European Union must include a driver monitoring camera

#823
The interesting part of this mostly bullshit is how it exposes a kind of reverse Goodhart's law scenario. When driving becomes less about attention to surroundings and focusing on driving and more about keeping the trivial beepers off, it changes the way people drive.

First, it will be less about motoring and driving a vehicle in a dynamic environment but focusing on pleasing the camera with your eyes. Back in the time my driving instructor said the eyes should move around all the time, every second to far, near, mirrors, side mirrors, etc.

Second option is that some people will just tune out of everything and I mean everything. When the car has too much to say they won't even look at or register at anything anymore. Blind spot warning is useful and so is engine high temperature warning or brake fault, but if you're constantly bombarded by ping pong bleep bing beeps who the fuck will care anymore?

Third, this will just prompt homebrew hacking to disable these things and basically de-digitize these complex systems. This will inevitably lead into a cat and mouse race between users who want to control and own their vehicle and manufacturers who are forced to keep controlling and owning the owner instead.

Obviously, if governments really cared about safety and not adding simple warnings to merely patch and train behaviour they would ban all attention-requiring context-specific user interfaces in cars that more than destroy all even theoretical safety gains from these beepers. It's illegal to look up your phone while driving but perfectly legal to wade in deep menus and panes via a touch panel while the car is beeping at you.

Re: Every new car sold in the European Union must include a driver monitoring camera

#824

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget to drink a verification can.

Yep... gets a little less funny every year as it comes closer to reality.

You going to hate this, but Tesla is adding facial recognition to start self driving. Whether it is to identify driver age, identify correct kid at school pickup, stop doll heads from attentiveness check bypass or determine license holder - you gotta admit it makes sense.

Re: Every new car sold in the European Union must include a driver monitoring camera

#825
A little conflicted on this one. I firmly believe there is too much distracted driving going on right now. And yet, I find driving a modern car a hugely distracting experience.

On the assumption we cant roll back those distractions this is probably a positive step if well implemented, but I do feel like we're largely patching over problems of our own creation.

I still think mandating all physical controls, and nothing more complex than a radio would probably be a bigger improvement. Determinedly lousy drivers will subvert any system you add, I think it's a better use of resources to help the average 'good enough' driver stay on task than trying to engineer around the social problem of those that don't want to.

Obligatory new car anecdote: Last year on my first drive of a hire car the lane keeping 'assistance' misread some worn out road markings and violently steered me into another lane. It ripped the wheel right out of my hands, collision avoided only by the other drivers reflexes.

I do not appreciate the apparent lack of tradition reliability engineering in a lot of these systems. A single camera and computer vision has no business being in a life critical path with no redundancy.

Re: Every new car sold in the European Union must include a driver monitoring camera

#826
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Over Christmas, I spent several minutes trying to debug my beeping dashboard - it only seemed to happen sometimes while driving, so stopping didn’t let me figure it out. Eventually I discovered that it was beeping at me because my eyes weren’t on the road enough. Of course, figuring that out required me to take my eyes off the road to figure out which blinking signal was associated with this particular alarm. Also, b…

> Also, being constantly warned that I was speeding in rural areas where the car missed a speed limit sign caused me to start ignoring the speeding alarm within a few hours of driving the car. A lot of these features seem to assume that you're driving on a multi-lane motorway with well-marked lanes. I'm constantly being nudged by my ID.3 one way or another on rural roads. You can turn it off, but it turns itself back…

"caused me to start ignoring the speeding alarm within"

Not sure if this has ever been implemented but I know from my time in automotive that there was the idea to exchange driving data with the insurer. If this becomes reality ignoring speed limits could increase your insurance premiums.

Re: Every new car sold in the European Union must include a driver monitoring camera

#827
I sometimes wonder how these systems are being tested on the road and whether there's any feedback from the test drivers, or what kind of morons are there saying "this is completely fine, exactly like intended" when they read the feedback...

My car has adaptive cruise control and will automatically adjust speed based on speed limit signs. I was on a highway at 130km/h and the car read a 60km/h speed limit sign that was on an exit shoulder (already separated by a concrete barrier from the highway, so technically a different road altogether) and started breaking really fast - I was pretty close from getting tailgated by the driver behind me, who did not (rightfully) expect me to suddenly start breaking with nothing in front of me. Luckily this can be permanently turned off, so I can continue using cruise control without being afraid of every single speed limit sign.

Recently I had rented a Skoda Karoq (very new one, probably 2024/2025) which adjusted the cruise control speed not even based on signs, but probably based on data from built-in maps? I don't know - but it would randomly decide that I entered a 20km/h zone while driving on a 90km/h road. And this couldn't be turned off. So I just turned off cruise control completely, because wtf, how can anyone think this is improving road safety?

Edit: typo

Re: Every new car sold in the European Union must include a driver monitoring camera

#829
post #335

All new cars. At this point I don't know if I'd buy anything made after 2008. Whenever I rent a new car around here (in the EU) I find them very annoying. The worst is the cruise control that tries to stick to the speed limit -- but its sensors don't always read the signs very well, so you'll often slow to 50 km/h (about 30 mph) for no reason. Then there's the incessant beeping at you, "lane assist" that you can't tu…

Renault have nailed this. In their latest cars (the EVs, at least) you set up which features you do and don’t want, then a single button press when you get in the car makes it so. Some of their implementations, such as lane keeping, are good enough to keep. Others, such as speed limit detection, aren’t (though it’s much better at French speed limits than UK ones, which I suppose makes sense).

(It's a double-press, which I think of as one action but I guess it's technically two button presses, because I believe the EU mandates that)
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