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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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611–620 of 891 posts

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#611
post #423
post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then why are you complaining about the language requirement for permanent residency? You knew the tradeoffs and chose them willingly, enjoy your income, invest in your home country and move back once you retire. Simply making higher-than-median income should not make you eligible for permanent residency. Cultural immersion and assimilation is important to maintain social stability and language is just the first step.…

Why do you want people with foreign backgrounds to “assimilate”? If you were to move to France, are you going to abandon your own language, culture, and play-pretend to be a Frenchman? If you live somewhere long enough, know the country, work and handle daily life without issues, have social connections with other people in this society, understand at least some language - in my opinion you are as integrated in that…

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#612
post #171

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Probability of inheriting sickle cell anemia, for one.

All black people? Or just those from some regions or ethnicities? The point I am making is that “white” and “black” simply aren’t races on any biological basis. It’s nothing more than a social distinction. The level of scientific ignorance on display here is weird.

You seem to keep suggesting that boundaries have to be perfect for categories to exist. This is not the case. White colour and dark colour exist as categories yet are blurry. Yet no sane person suggests colours don’t exist.

There’s no sharp boundary between a hill and a mountain. There’s no sharp boundary between dark and white colours. There’s no sharp boundary between male and female either at the edge cases when you consider intersex. Language has its limitations and it’s obvious to most of us and we don’t have to play semantic juggling each time.

Does the way people use race as a word have biological basis? Absolutely yes. For example you take people who self identify as black and white and try to find whether their DNA can predict their self identified race. You would agree that it can predict to a good extent I hope.

On a side note: I think you have fallen into this popular rabbit hole where you expect sharp boundaries for commonly used words/categories. Such sharp boundaries never exist and every normal person from a child to an adult knows and works around this. This kind of rhetoric is popular with some extremist academic types to signal their in group presence. Tip: if you want to solve racism, don’t get into debates on esoteric definitions of race and pretend race itself doesn’t exist. Normal people aren’t convinced.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that was such a self inflicted wound that Europe, and Germany, did to itself. No wonder people are voting AfD. and for the downvoters: these are facts. this is what the politician in Europe campaigned with, built platforms on and said for everything. "We'll get engineers, and doctors! Lots of workers!" Fast forward 5 years... How's the Willkommenkultur going you ask? Look at AfD. Look recently at the 10 million Switz…

> and for the downvoters: these are facts. One would expect you would follow that sentence with some facts...

I did. you're welcome to use your favourite search engine.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#614
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

that was such a self inflicted wound that Europe, and Germany, did to itself. No wonder people are voting AfD. and for the downvoters: these are facts. this is what the politician in Europe campaigned with, built platforms on and said for everything. "We'll get engineers, and doctors! Lots of workers!" Fast forward 5 years... How's the Willkommenkultur going you ask? Look at AfD. Look recently at the 10 million Switz…

You talking about refugees or migration? That's two totally different things. Germany is in desperate need of migration and yes, the people that come are skilled workers. Refugees is a completely different topic.

Willkommenkultur should have given it away that I am talking about refugees. however, in normal societal culture, these cannot be separated, I promise you. refugees set the tone for how migrants are viewed by the general public.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#615
post #31

I think there is also a chicken-egg problem in almost every country that doesn't use English as official language: If you are not an engineer you must have an almost excellent level of local language --> an excellent level of a language is only possible if you are immersed daily over a long time and have the time to study --> to live there you need a job --> back to start Different counties have different tolerances…

> If you are not an engineer you must have an almost excellent level of local language --> an excellent level of a language is only possible if you are immersed daily over a long time and have the time to study I disagree: for many jobs, it is expected that you have a decent level of English, but at least in Germany, you are often not immersed a lot in English. So you have to get decent in English with barely any imm…

Some level of english is required in every country. And you are exposed to it quite frequently in a way or the other (which european country doest start teaching it from elementary school? ). My uni required me to follow course in english and write and defend a thesis in English. You are exposed to english a lot. And on top of that it's a simple lanuge.

Try to lean polish, or chinese. Or german as a Japanese native. Won't be that easy.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Cambodia is blatantly racist In my experience, there is nothing special about Cambodia in this regard. You could substitute any poorly developed nation, and you would have similar results. If Cambodia had a GDP per capita similar to Japan/Korea/Taiwan, they would "suddenly" become less racist because they would be much more concerned with economics rather than ethnicity/religion.

I had to think about this. I don't think it's wealth that's the differentiator. I think it's partly colonialism and partly culture. > If Cambodia had a GDP per capita similar to Japan/Korea/Taiwan, they would "suddenly" become less racist Japan is also, famously, extremely racist. Probably to the same extent that Cambodia is, but I haven't been there so I can't compare. Colonialism has a lot to answer for in SE Asia.…

    > Japan is also, famously, extremely racist.
I replied about this below: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48828355

    > I don't think it's wealth that's the differentiator. I think it's partly colonialism and partly culture.
I think it is political/social issue. What really drives the fall in racism is politicians/community leaders/school officials talking about it. They observe it, then speak out against it. When and why different countries choose to do is (a) somewhat random and (b) somewhat correlated to their wealth and (c) strongly correlated to the strength (and existance) of their democracy.

Why do almost all countries that get rich also get more democratic and more liberal on social issues? I don't know, but I see it nearly universally in many different countries.

    > Colonialism has a lot to answer for in SE Asia. I suspect a lot of the defensive patriotism there is a product of being so badly treated for so long.
One interesting point that many people are not aware of: Thailand is the only country in SE Asia that was never a colony (including "protectorate"). Is Thailand really so different than Cambodia in this regard? I'm not the right person to answer, but it is interesting to think about.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#617
I've been living in Berlin for about seventeen years. My German isn't great but usable in an emergency. I get by with it. Most work related stuff is English.

Bureaucracy is an annoyance in this country. But the flip side is that if you persist, you'll manage. It's also not something that's necessarily a lot better in other big countries. But Germany could do a lot better by just moving a lot of the key processes online, cutting down on asking for the same information over and over again via paper forms, and speeding up decision processes. That's slowly happening.

With AI translations, doing things in German (or any language) is a lot easier these days for foreigners. Also making sense of the complex processes with AI is helpful. Insistence that everybody should learn German is understandable from a nationalistic point of view. But you get quite far without that. Easier than ever now. Germany could be a bit more accommodating for this.

And the reality in factories, on construction sites, etc. is that you hear a lot of other languages being spoken. Lots of eastern Europeans active in the construction industry, for example. And lots of nurses and doctors from abroad are active in their hospitals. Packages are being delivered by people from India and Pakistan. And of course German companies that sell to foreign companies have to deal with the notion that their customers mostly won't be speaking German. Germany is already a lot more international than it might like to admit.

But it's undeniably true that you need to speak German in order to interact with especially older Germans and their companies. They simply don't speak anything else. Kind of weird because many of them are super dependent on import/export markets and yet they are mortally afraid of having to be in a meeting with non German speakers. I've experienced this several times. However, the baby boom generation is retiring and younger generations are already much more internationally focused. Most younger college educated people here speak English at this point. It's not that much of a problem as it used to be.

And even talking to people is getting easier now that we have AI translations and transcriptions. I've worked my way through a few meetings in Denglish. Ugly, but it works and if you have a shared business goal, people get more flexible.

Germany has been in and out of a recession for several years now and it's working population is on track to shrink and things like its pension and healthcare system are becoming a problem financially. It will need to work smarter to get out of that and that probably is going to require working with people that won't be speaking German from outside of Germany. Easy fix for that recession is just embracing the future. Many of Germany's problems are of its own making and very fixable.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#618

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're making it sound like the desire to be a Frenchman is an unreasonable requirement for becoming a Frenchman. > abandon your own language, culture Thank god nobody is asking this. They're being asked to learn enough French to participate in France. B1 is hard, but it ain't B2, and you'll still barely understand what's going on around you.

> requirement for becoming a Frenchman The discussion is about permanent residence, not citizenship. Permanent residence allows eg an employee be able to continue staying in a country without being dependent on a particular employer and having to reapply everytime they change jobs. It is gives a person who works in a country for a certain amount of time already, paying taxes etc, having the same rights as an employee…

If someone wants to be a permanent resident of a country and build their life there, they should have to plan to eventually become a citizen of that country.

To allow otherwise leads to its destruction, just people with no long term skin in the game extracting before moving on.

It is a huge conflict of interest among the population. Its like having a corporation where half the owners want a quick return and exist and half want to run it like a lifestyle company.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#619
post #567

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You beat me to it! This is the classic HN reply. Even in Paris or Milan, as soon as you leave the central areas, most people will speak little English and are happy to allow you to practice your poor French/Italian with them!

I'm constantly amazed at how far I can get in Portugal or Italy speaking only Spanish. They're different languages but you can make it work well enough in pretty much every situation I've been in.

I recall reading an autobiography by US Supreme Court justice Sonia Sotomayor. She used to represent Fendi, the Italian fashion brand, when there were suing for copyright infringement (counterfeit goods). She would speak Spanish and the Fendi senior execs would speak Italian and they understood each other well enough. That was a real a-ha moment for me!

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#620

I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in positions of leadership, your chances of "getting ahead" are going to be limited, especially when you're competing against natives. The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be…

> a photo is pretty much required which would be considered illegal in other countries like the UK

I work since over 15 years as SWE and have been job hopping most of the time. Only during one job hunt I put a (professional) photo on my CV. While a photo on the CV is obviously not illegal, employers aren't allowed to demand it since 2 decades. But I agree there is a bias.

While I'm fully German so to say, I have a foreign last name literally from centuries ago. For most of the time this was never an issue, at best a conversation starter. But companies where the daily language is German (hint: these companies usually suck) I definitely had weird situations before. Also with some recruiters, especially from the UK.

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