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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#461

Post by pessimizer »

aleph_minus_one wrote: post #440
delis-thumbs-7e wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. You can get to A2 level pretty easy (in most indoeuropean languages at least), but jumping to B1 can seriously be a year or more of studying. You have to be able to handle basic daily situations in the given language and understand what is said in a TV or Radio show. With practice yo…

> None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. I am very certain this is not true. The "just learn the language" people are typically rather people who are very talented in learning new languages (and often indeed to this as adults as a personal hobby - often even with languages from very different families), and thus are often…

I've always heard it said that "polyglot" starts with the fourth language. The opinion is that to have a at-home (family) language, an outdoor (regional) language and a market (capital) language is too common to be considered truly exceptional. Once you pick up the fourth, you're getting into hobby territory.

Kató Lomb (maybe the first official "simultaneous translator" wrote about gaining, losing, and maintaining languages entertainingly and in detail.

edit:

"Polyglot: How I Learn Languages" https://www.tesl-ej.org/books/lomb-2nd-Ed.pdf

"With Languages in Mind: Musings of a Polyglot" https://www.tesl-ej.org/pdf/ej78/WLIM.pdf

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#462

Post by djaro »

delis-thumbs-7e wrote: post #413
littlecranky67 wrote: post #270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a german living in spain, i feel your pain. While I do speak spanish around B1/B2 level, it took a lot of time and effort - probably the biggest effort in learning something after uni. People are often "you should speak the language if you life there" - yes, agreed. BUT: Hell, if you are a professional entrepreneur, you are already not working 40h week but way more. If in your day job you speak english anyway beca…

None of this people opining “just learn the language” have learned a second language while working as adults, let alone learned German. You can get to A2 level pretty easy (in most indoeuropean languages at least), but jumping to B1 can seriously be a year or more of studying. You have to be able to handle basic daily situations in the given language and understand what is said in a TV or Radio show. With practice yo…

I would disagree about it not being "easy". Learning a language certainly takes time and effort, but the fact that even the dumbest people in society can speak fluently, that literal toddlers learn languages, shows that it's far from difficult.

It just requires turning your rational mind off, immersing yourself in the language and trusting things will work out, something which more rational/analytic people tend to struggle with. It's telling that children from non-English countries naturally become completely fluent in English by just playing video games and watching YouTube videos, while adults will struggle for years to reach conversational fluency in their second language.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#463

Post by aleph_minus_one »

garbawarb wrote: post #351
ogou wrote: post #296

Berlin is one the cheapest capital cities in Europe. As such it attracts a huge amount of immigrants. That low cost is reflected in the pay. An experienced full stack developer would be fortunate to get 90-95k euro annually. That is plenty of money if you intend to stay in Berlin, but is not something you can save up and build a future with or transfer to another country. Also, housing is a huge problem there and it…

Where do the German coders go though?

> Where do the German coders go though?

Currently the market for software developers is very complicated in Germany.

Basically, the answer is: if you have a job, you stay there (at least until hopefully in a few years the job market situation for software developers in Germany improves).

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#464

Post by djaro »

backwardsponcho wrote: post #394
dudul wrote: post #336

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do you live 6 years in a country without reaching B1?

You'd be surprised at the lengths some will go to avoid learning a new language. I've met people who have lived over 20y in a country while working, having and raising kids there and still can't have a half decent basic conversation in the local language. There is always an excuse: too much work, too little time, too tired or you name it, but the end result is that they are inconveniencing themselves. Not saying it i…

The thing that makes this illogical to me is that once you reach basic fluency, you stop needing to study since you will now be automatically improving your language skills every time you hold a conversation, read a newspaper, watch a television program, etc. It's genuinely just the relatively small initial hurdle towards ~B1 that is a slog, but after that, you never have to actively study again if you don't want to.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#465

Post by pessimizer »

thesmtsolver2 wrote: post #430
angott wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency Hmm, is that really the case? Or perhaps you're confusing work visas with permanent residency? Most attractive destinations for immigrants usually require a language test for PR. Ignoring the United States and its dysfunctional immigration system, a language test is required or practically required almost anywhere there is a points-based system t…

Yes. The US doesn’t require language fluency for green cards. You can even bring your own interpret to the interview. United States issues the highest absolute number of permanent residency permits in the world. It grants approximately 1 to 1.4 million lawful permanent resident (LPR) cards (Green Cards) annually

The US is an exception, doesn't require language proficiency for almost anything, and doesn't have an official language. This is very controversial in the US, and always has been.

Historically, this can originally be blamed on the desire of the US to import as many European immigrants as quickly as it could after the slaves were freed (post-"1877 Compromise"), because ex-slave votes were changing the composition of government. In 1910, only 60% of white Americans were native born (as opposed to about 98.5% of black Americans.) This period is also referred to as the "nadir of American race relations."

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#466

Post by hunterpayne »

programmertote wrote: post #261
parheric wrote: post #20

I've been here for a decade, and sadly I feel the issue is upward mobility for skilled workers. Unless you're working for an intl company, with ex-pats in positions of leadership, your chances of "getting ahead" are going to be limited, especially when you're competing against natives. The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be…

That sounds similar to what you experience in the US especially as a first gen immigrant. I see a glass ceiling (for the lack of a better word) here. Most of the leadership positions are occupied by US-born (mostly Caucasian) and/or to some degree, Indian immigrants. Sometimes, I truly wonder how/why this person got into the leadership role because it's fairly obvious that s/he lacks the essential qualities required…

Have you ever worked for a European company? You could say the exact same things about every country on the planet except the US version is probably less extreme. Also the US companies are probably more complex to run so its more visible. I once worked for a company that probably manages some of your retirement. They had a team of 50 people working on a compiler for an internal language. Not a single person on that team knew how to actually write a compiler and the executive in charge was both the most arrogant and least capable executive I have ever worked with. So the idea that this is somehow US specific is pretty absurd.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#467

Post by 486sx33 »

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

[dead]

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#468

Post by aleph_minus_one »

lukeweston1234 wrote: post #59
thi2 wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germans tend to differentiate between getting takeout (something like kebab/pizza/asia box to go or delivered home) or eating out (going to a restaurant and eating there). But I'd argue for most people getting into the car to get takeout is not very common.

Yeah and honestly, it shouldn't be. It was really strange going back to the U.S and having family members suggest we drive to get ice cream. It's incredibly wasteful. That being said, I've noticed that these takeout meals tend to be pretty low quality and unhealthy and I miss this middle ground that I could lean on once or twice a week.

> Yeah and honestly, it shouldn't be. It was really strange going back to the U.S and having family members suggest we drive to get ice cream. It's incredibly wasteful.

Side remark: In Germany "drive" (in this case: to get ice cream) can often also mean "go by bike" (in Germany, the word "fahren" is both used for cars (Auto fahren) and bicycles (Rad/Fahrrad fahren), leaving it open which vehicle is meant, because both choices are plausible, even though I would claim that for getting ice cream, a bicycle is the more natural choice.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#469

Post by throwaway27448 »

rdbl27 wrote: post #410
g8oz wrote: post #282

Earlier quoted context omitted.

ICE agents are arresting people when they show up for green card interviews.

ICE agents arrest _people who committed crimes_ at green card interviews (including "entering the country illegally," which is a crime.) As I said, the United States is very welcoming to foreigners who are willing to follow the laws.

> people who committed crimes

Or who simply e.g. violate NSPM-7. They aren't exactly operating within the bounds of statute themselves.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#470

Post by numeri »

alex0015 wrote: post #273
numeri wrote: post #249

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most Germans won't be able to pass a C2 test That's not true, but it is a commonly shared myth. I've taken and passed C2 with the highest mark in every category (I moved here when I was a young teen, wanted to know if I would pass it after hearing years of people saying things like you're saying). Most Germans would easily pass C2, although I think they'd have to be well-read/possibly university educated to get hig…

That's a really interesting experience. Lots of people in language learning communities have this argument back and forth for years. Have you ever written a longer piece about your education, preparation for the exam, abilities of other test takers? For reference I scored ~C1 in German years ago (testdaf 4/4/5/4) and at that level there's no question at all about the vast gulf between me and an educated native speake…

I've not written up anything, no. I think I'd have a hard time doing so without just feeling like I'm bragging about myself, which I don't like.

There's still a definite gap between me and native speakers, that shows itself primarily in the effort required, but I'm definitely near native (pass as German in all social settings, although an hour long conversation will usually tease it out due to my unfamiliar first name or small-talk topics, rarely but occasionally due to mistakes).

I prepared by doing two practice exams and about 5 filmed and timed practice presentations, and that was over preparing for me. Experiences vary, and I do think I'm a bit towards the outlier side, but it's left me convinced that the whole "native speakers might not pass C2" thing is overblown.

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