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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#271

Post by Hardwired8976 »

dghlsakjg wrote: post #232
chis wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an interesting divide. "German" is both an ethnicity and a citizenship, and it's possible to become one but not the other. "American" on the other hand is purely a citizenship, and so it is possible to become an American after immigrating.

If German is an ethnicity, I don't see why the US, which is older than the German Confederation (let alone the subsequent countries that have existed since then on that same land) has a distinct culture and set of shared values, cannot be.

Native Americans would be a ethnicity but the US was taken over my European settlers.

Europe the Germanic people have existed way before , a country is not tied to the ethnicity.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#272

Post by aleph_minus_one »

bcye wrote: post #257
trinix912 wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are kind of expected to adjust yourself to the culture of the country you’re immigrating to. If you fail (or refuse) to do so in the most obvious/visible ways possible (like clothing), I think you shouldn’t be surprised when people look at you weird because you look out of place.

Someone wearing a hijab looks out of place in the land of the Döner?

> Someone wearing a hijab looks out of place in the land of the Döner?

The history with the Turkish gastarbeiters is a complicated one. Please don't twist the knife in the wound.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#273

Post by alex0015 »

numeri wrote: post #249
helge9210 wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

C1 can be achieved (I did it on 360 hours). C2 is academic level of language proficiency -- you have to either deliberately study for the difficult exam or get an university degree in German. Most of the Germans won't be able to pass a C2 test. When a company sets C2 as a requirement, it can be interpreted as "must have a degree from German University".

> Most Germans won't be able to pass a C2 test That's not true, but it is a commonly shared myth. I've taken and passed C2 with the highest mark in every category (I moved here when I was a young teen, wanted to know if I would pass it after hearing years of people saying things like you're saying). Most Germans would easily pass C2, although I think they'd have to be well-read/possibly university educated to get hig…

That's a really interesting experience. Lots of people in language learning communities have this argument back and forth for years. Have you ever written a longer piece about your education, preparation for the exam, abilities of other test takers?

For reference I scored ~C1 in German years ago (testdaf 4/4/5/4) and at that level there's no question at all about the vast gulf between me and an educated native speaker.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#274

Post by cpursley »

parineum wrote: post #246
dgs_sgd wrote: post #237

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Like, I imagine if I moved to a country and couldn’t do the B1 things in their language, I would have daily obstacles doing basic life things.

A country like the USA?

For all its problems, the US is one of the best at accommodating non English.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#275

Post by dghlsakjg »

stickfigure wrote: post #268
dghlsakjg wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your argument is that a group of independent states spanning a huge part of a continent that banded together into a country in the 1800s forms a country that is also an ethnicity, but that a group of independent states spanning a huge part of a continent that banded together even longer ago is not a country that is also an ethnicity?

The difference is that - excepting about 1.4% of the population - everyone here in the US is either an immigrant or descended from immigrants. Most of them long after the Mayflower sailed. However long it takes to create a new capital-E Ethnicity, it hasn't been long enough.

Who cares if most people in the US had ancestors that came from somewhere else? My English ancestors have precisely no bearing on the way I live my life any more than my German, Dutch or Polish (well, they came from what is now Poland, but would never have thought of themselves as polish). The child of immigrants in Germany is going to be far more German than I am despite my ancestry.

American culture is undeniably real. American values and beliefs likewise.

Is the only thing that decides an ethnicity how far back your ancestors have been procreating within a country’s current borders?

Culture and values is a better delineator, and it is pretty undeniable that America has a distinct culture and value set.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#276

Post by aleph_minus_one »

expedition32 wrote: post #8
Alien1Being wrote: post #2

German discrimination and racism towards migrant workers and visible minorities is world class. And with Alternative für Deutschland / AfD rising rapidly, this is only going to get much, much worse. https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/70478/study-finds-racis... https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/germany-...

Germany is a remarkably rural and insular country compared to the Netherlands whose foundational myth comes from bankers and merchants.

> Germany is a remarkably rural and insular country compared to the Netherlands whose foundational myth comes from bankers and merchants.

There existed no "Germany" before the second half of the 19th century, only a list of various sovereign states.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#277

Post by screye »

ikut3hva wrote: post #165

Hi everyone I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment. We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep re…

B1 German is about 1 year of intensive studying from zero. With immersion and part-time commitment, I'd say ~3 years is a comfortable timeline to learn B1 German.

I am basing this off my personal experience of going from A1 -> A2 -> half-way through B1 (I dropped after I decided against studying in Germany, but my classmates continued the course). Given that German companies are known for excellent work-life balance, there should be enough spare time to learn German by the 5 year point.

All that being said, I imagine it's harder to learn a language when you have kids and family responsibilities.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#278

Post by RugnirViking »

sigmoid10 wrote: post #222
kombine wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My rule is that if you want to settle in the country, you ought to learn the local language and it doesn't really matter how much money you make in my opinion. I got to B2 and passed the test, but ultimately left Germany years ago. I don't intend to go back but I also don't regret learning the language.

I've lived in foreign places for less than 6 months and still bothered to pick up enough language to at least converse on a basic A1 level. Especially in certain regions where people don't speak english well this is almost a requirement for any daily life that is not work related. I can't imagine living somewhere for six whole years without picking up the language at all. Maybe if you actually hate the place and are…

To be fair, B1 and especially B2 are not trivial requirements. A1 you will "pick up" like you say, but it's easy to fall into a trap of remaining around A2 without sustained effortful studying. (If you try to do it through just interacting with natives with no structure it's common to fossilize mistakes which take much longer to fix, or even just become permanent)

Personally I've gotten to B2 (not Germany) which is enough for most purposes, but it would have been very possible to get stuck in a rut.

It's very common for couples that move here for one to have a job, and the other to spend some months unemployed looking for a job. It's generally observed that those that have the job learn the job much slower and get stuck, and the ones that spend time at home and looking have much better outcomes longer term

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#279

Post by sva_ »

brewdad wrote: post #184
lispisok wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So your complaint is you wanted permanent residence in Germany but did not want to learn to speak German?

Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency. Assuming your immigration status is regular and you are a contributing member of society. Citizenship? Absolutely, you must speak the language. Residency? Not nearly as common.

> Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language

This statement is clearly false, off the top of my head only USA and Spain come to mind. There are some countries like Japan where there it isn't a hard requirement, but you'd need a very good reason to justify why

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#280

Post by volkl48 »

pimterry wrote: post #254
angott wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Most countries will grant PR without requiring a language proficiency Hmm, is that really the case? Or perhaps you're confusing work visas with permanent residency? Most attractive destinations for immigrants usually require a language test for PR. Ignoring the United States and its dysfunctional immigration system, a language test is required or practically required almost anywhere there is a points-based system t…

One counter-example: in Spain no language test is required for permanent residency, only for citizenship.

Spain is historically trying to attract old foreign retirees with money who will spend their retirement savings/pensions there, but probably doesn't want that same group voting unless they really have assimilated. So that set of rules makes sense for their immigration model but is also probably not a place to look to for setting policy if your immigrants are working-age adults (that are coming there to work, not retire early).
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