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Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

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Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#211

Post by iamtheworstdev »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #116

Whenever the topic of “banned books” comes up, a bunch of people argue about whether they should be called “banned”. What I haven’t seen mentioned in these discussions is where the mental association of “banned books” comes from. In America, at least, the school curriculum spends a lot of time talking about dictators. It mentions, numerous times over many years of a child’s life, that something dictators often do is…

book burnings like this? https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2023/09/gop-lawmakers-hold-symbo...

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#212

Post by grahamburger »

AlexandrB wrote: post #208
grahamburger wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That type of media was never in schools to begin with. The problem here is that schools and districts made their own, informed curation decisions, and those decisions are being overridden by zealous parents informed only by their religious and political persuasions.

The implication here is that schools are making these decisions on a neutral, apolitical basis - but this is not really possible, is it? As many on the left would say: "everything is political". So what we're discussing is (yet another) front in the "culture war", this time about what ideas and values children should be exposed to. Let's just be honest about that at least.

> schools are making these decisions on a neutral, apolitical basis - but this is not really possible, is it?

Well, sure, but it's not possible for the religious parent groups to be apolitical either (nor do they make any attempt at even ostensible neutrality). Teachers and administrators are well trained, often have or have had children, and are generally a part of the community where they work and teach. It's not like they are 'coastal elites' making lefty decisions for the community; by and large, they share similar worldviews to the kids and their parents. I think we should give them more of our trust in making these decisions.

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#213

Post by JuniperMesos »

grahamburger wrote: post #188
pfannkuchen wrote: post #116

Whenever the topic of “banned books” comes up, a bunch of people argue about whether they should be called “banned”. What I haven’t seen mentioned in these discussions is where the mental association of “banned books” comes from. In America, at least, the school curriculum spends a lot of time talking about dictators. It mentions, numerous times over many years of a child’s life, that something dictators often do is…

On the other hand, there is a persistent idea that schools are just making curation decisions for the children in their district, and people are calling that book banning. That's what you seem to be suggesting here. In all cases I'm aware of, that's not what's happening either; it's generally a parent, or a small group of parents, generally all from the same religious group and political party, bullying the library o…

You're more likely to be aware of a library book curation decision where parents are publicly fighting to remove a book the school library management wants to keep; compared to a curation decision where the school library management simply never decides to make a book available to begin with.

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#214

Post by cauch »

AlexandrB wrote: post #208
grahamburger wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That type of media was never in schools to begin with. The problem here is that schools and districts made their own, informed curation decisions, and those decisions are being overridden by zealous parents informed only by their religious and political persuasions.

The implication here is that schools are making these decisions on a neutral, apolitical basis - but this is not really possible, is it? As many on the left would say: "everything is political". So what we're discussing is (yet another) front in the "culture war", this time about what ideas and values children should be exposed to. Let's just be honest about that at least.

I think a better frame is: will the children be less socially adjusted if they are exposed to the book?

While "everything is political", I can still see some differences. What was presented as "banned on neutral, apolitical basis base" in the previous comment can be seen as political at some level, but they are way less political than "let's ban this book because I don't want my children to be exposed to lefties ideas".

It feels like there is an order of magnitude less importance to "maintaining our children unexposed to others' point of view" in the cases of left-wing book-banning than in the right-wing side. After all, right-wing book banning often works on "leftie keywords" or themes (gender study stuffs, inclusivity, ...) while I don't think there is a real movement to ban books because they use too much of "right-wing keywords" (free market stuffs, nationalism, ...).

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#215

Post by grahamburger »

JuniperMesos wrote: post #213
grahamburger wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, there is a persistent idea that schools are just making curation decisions for the children in their district, and people are calling that book banning. That's what you seem to be suggesting here. In all cases I'm aware of, that's not what's happening either; it's generally a parent, or a small group of parents, generally all from the same religious group and political party, bullying the library o…

You're more likely to be aware of a library book curation decision where parents are publicly fighting to remove a book the school library management wants to keep; compared to a curation decision where the school library management simply never decides to make a book available to begin with.

Personally, I am OK with the library making their own curation decisions. That's part of how a library functions, I understand that they can't carry everything. I have a problem when zealous parents try to override those decisions, especially when they are motivated by political or religious worldviews.

I think the Bible should be in school libraries (and it always has been), but if you're keeping it while removing other books for sex, violence, genocide, pedophilia, rape, homosexuality, or other objectionable things that are also included in the Bible, I think you're being inconsistent and overzealous.

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#216

Post by JuniperMesos »

anthk wrote: post #203
quaddoggy wrote: post #153

Looking forward to picking up copies of The Bell Curve and The Camp of the Saints since free speech is now so widely supported in Europe.

Except the Bell Curve it's bullshit. I'm from Europe (Spain), and even the Francoists said otherwise. Right wing people further than Pether Thiel itself. Go figure. A nun, some woman (women are far more aware than men on emotions as their hormones basically grant an A+ on social skills) stated that Black People weren't dumb, but African people had no tradition at all on stimulating or paying good attention babies/tod…

[flagged]

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#217

Post by ZeroGravitas »

pfannkuchen wrote: post #191
mossTechnician wrote: post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banning a book in a school district still signifies a form of authoritarianism. If someone is prevented from reading Maus[0] (or finding out they are in a cult, or a victim of domestic abuse), what is the effective difference to them between an authoritarian censoring it at the national level or the local one? [0]: https://www.pbs.org/newshour/arts/holocaust-novel-maus-banne...

By that definition everywhere throughout all time is authoritarian. Everywhere throughout all time is obviously not authoritarian, so the definition fails. Sorry, you are wrong.

Everywhere being authoritarian throughout all time seems a fairly good summary to me?

The Romans nailed Jesus to a cross, the American south bred human slaves, Europe regularly had crusades and pogroms, post-war America supported a crazy number of military dictatorships, the Iron curtain, Communist China and so on.

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#218

Post by buellerbueller »

bluescrn wrote: post #172
jnovek wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is censorship if those books are not included for a specific reason. “We aren’t including this book in the library because we don’t have space for every book.” “We aren’t including this book because we don’t think it’s appropriate for kids to learn about trans people.” <—- censorship

> “We aren’t including this book because we don’t think it’s appropriate for kids to learn about trans people.” Removing books from public libraries (not just schools) because we find criticism of certain ideas around gender to be offensive https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-66441947

Yes, book bans are bad no matter who does it. See how simple that is?

Re: Dua Lipa opens library for banned and censored books in Portugal

#219

Post by buellerbueller »

mcphage wrote: post #55
buellerbueller wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Since there are no libraries with space for every book (ever), then there is no censorship?

> Since there are no libraries with space for every book (ever), then there is no censorship? When people ban books because they don't want others to learn about trans people, they're usually pretty vocal about their motivations.

>When people ban books because they don't want others to learn about trans people, they're usually pretty vocal about their motivations.

You assume they are vocal about their motivations, because how could you possibly know, if they claim it under cover of "not enough shelf space"?

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