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Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

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Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#161

German discrimination and racism towards migrant workers and visible minorities is world class. And with Alternative für Deutschland / AfD rising rapidly, this is only going to get much, much worse. https://www.infomigrants.net/en/post/70478/study-finds-racis... https://www.business-humanrights.org/en/latest-news/germany-...

I mean... yes discrimination doesn't feel nice... but it's not as if people who come to Germany where forced to do so by the germans. I'm not from Germany, but the vibes in some of the high-muslim density parts of Germany I've been to have likewise felt unwelcome, unsafe and hostile (towards me as a scandinavian). So it feel a bit more complicated than "germans are racist, BAD". Anecdotally I've heard that it's hard…

Not to mention the fact that all of those home countries are equally if not more openly racist and restrictive of immigrants from the other direction

The question is, is any country “perfect” in this regard, showing zero degree of self-selecting and internal favoritism? I suspect not, because it’s not really possible to have a country without focusing on, well, itself, first and foremost. Of course integrated immigrants ARE part of “the country”. But if immigrations swells too fast and/or immigrants are not well integrated, then of course that can present obvious non-racism-based problems for the county’s finances, infrastructure, economy, and culture.

Is anyone outside the west throwing the word “racist” around so liberally? It seems to west thinks it’s somehow evolved beyond the natural constraints of state/tribe. But, of course, it can’t.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#162
post #124

guys, join a Verein. some Verein. any Verein. that's where Germans make friends when we're new in town.

They joined verein but didn't notice it's two years contract with auto renewal, cancellation three months in advance by letter. Left the country after receiving Mahnbescheid. Have fun in this asshole-verein.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#163
post #130

Here is my anecdote. I was in Germany recently and met with a South American woman. We briefly talked about our immigrant experiences. She is now a German citizen married to a German man. However, she said she can't identify as a German because nobody made her feel like one. By contrast, when I became an American citizen, my American friends (white and hispanic) insisted that they attend the naturalization ceremony.

There is deep history here. For most of the past centuries, most Europe was from where you immigrated FROM, not where you immigrated TO.

There just is not the kind of immigration culture as in America. Some people don’t even have a notion why anyone would want to come to Europe.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#164
post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

Race != Race. Race as a social construct exists but biologically speaking there is no such thing. In the US the term "race" always refers to the social construct. The german word "Rasse" did not undergo that same change in meaning. Even the most extreme right wing in Germany, the most openly racist people you can find would not dare to use that word in this manner in public. This is far more offensive than using the…

It would really just save everyone a lot of time if we just said "branch" instead of "race". We all branched off from some shared ancestors somewhere back in the mists of time. We're all cousins from different branches of the family.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#165
Hi everyone

I don’t usually comment on topics like this because there are so many biases and different perspectives involved. In the end, I believe only the person who has actually gone through the experience can truly understand it; otherwise, it often becomes just another judgment.

We are an ASEAN family earning more than €200k gross annually (sorry for mentioning the TC, but there is a reason for it—please keep reading before judging). We have lived here for more than six years, and you know what? I still haven’t obtained either permanent residence or German citizenship simply because I don’t have a B1 certificate. So first things first: regardless of how much you contribute to the country, German is a must today if you want to obtain residency and stabilize your life here.

I was honestly devastated when the officer told me that I was not eligible for permanent residence. That was also the moment when I started to feel that maybe I don’t actually need permanent residence in this country after all.

Story 2: In an international working environment, German may not matter much at the IC level. But I’ve seen countless situations where Germans exchange a glance with each other, and suddenly the final decision is not what was agreed upon in the meeting. Over time, I’ve learned that there are many unwritten rules behind the scenes, and when you speak their language, you start to understand them.

One bright thing is that maybe we’re still lucky. We bought our first home without fully understanding the laws, the government system, or the tax rules. We simply worked hard and played the game in a way that we believed would be sustainable in the long run. Whatever happens, we know there are still many other places we could go.

Our children speak German natively, but they are also willing to go the extra mile to speak our mother tongue at home.

If you ask me for one piece of advice for immigrants and emigrants in Germany, I’d say: life is short—play naked!

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#166
post #125

All this discussion makes me wonder - is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy? Assuming the immigrant makes every effort to integrate (learning the language, respecting local people/customs etc). It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general - or maybe it is just the impression I get from the media? I don't know for sure.

Yes. The United States.

Despite the whirlwind of media to the contrary, the US is very welcoming to foreigners who follow the laws (that is, don't enter illegally) and make an effort to integrate by learning the language and customs.

Much more than any other country on Earth.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#167
post #127
post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

" Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. " https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

> > > The reason is sadly, the culture is very reserved and cautious, so as an "outsider" it's going to take A LONG time before you can be trusted in a senior/leadership position (no matter how good your German language skills are). Can someone explain what the "strongest plausible interpretation of this" is in this context? It sounds like straightforward xenophobia from the Germans but the other guy who said so got…

You're adding a lot of assumptions in order to reach that conclusion.

Generally it's not a good idea to reduce someone else's comment to a blunt denunciation, and especially not when you're adding a putdown of your own ("that is a LOT of words"). The commenter was obviously offering a complex expression of their experience and not just circomlocuting a crudity.

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#168
post #150
post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what ways are white people meaningfully different from black people?

Skin color and (facial) bone structure for example. Like it or not, but humans have adapted to living in different climates and have different ancestral lines. Take a picture of an average black person and edit to white skin, it will still not look like a white person. As the commenter above you already said, this is not a bad thing. People on _hacker_news should be able to understand that being able to define the ==…

All white people are different from all black people in the same way?

They can be told apart like this, absent skin colour?

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#169

I migrated to Germany 10+ years ago and I'm still here. Based on my limited experience, there are two big issues. First, things are bad : trains are getting worse every year, the highways are in disrepair (ask me about Bonn!), overloaded doctors, impossibly slow bureaucracy, economic crisis, growing inequality, housing crisis, and so on. If you're a fresh immigrant who cannot find a job in an economic crisis (aka "mo…

What has kept you from achieving C2, you’ve been there for 10y+

Just ask Mark Twain ;)

https://faculty.georgetown.edu/jod/texts/twain.german.html

Re: Why skilled workers come to Germany and then leave again

#170
post #125

All this discussion makes me wonder - is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy? Assuming the immigrant makes every effort to integrate (learning the language, respecting local people/customs etc). It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general - or maybe it is just the impression I get from the media? I don't know for sure.

> is there any country an immigrant can move to, and better their lives as well as the locals' life/economy?

The United States.

> It seems the world is turning hostile to immigration in general - or maybe it is just the impression I get from the media?

The world is turning hostile to immigration because the media (and social media sites) highlight and repeat the bad anecdotes, while barely mentioning the actual data showing positive outcomes.

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