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Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

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Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#121

Post by distances »

weberer wrote: post #101
pjerem wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe is lacking AC because we never had to deal with 30°C at night before the last 5-10 years. And for the regions where we needed to (like, around the Mediterranean), guess what, AC is everywhere there. You know what, me, an European, just received this morning ? The AC unit I ordered. It's not hard to install AC in Europe, it's just that until a few years ago, we never needed it. The only real blocker today is wh…

>It's not hard to install AC in Europe Its orders of magnitude harder. When I lived in the USA, I could just pick up a $200 window unit and have it installed within minutes. Every single person had air conditioning. Now I live in Finland where the windows are the worst designed windows I've ever seen. They are thin, tall windows that open vertically on hinges like doors. So rain gets in, and its impossible to install…

Can sliding windows be properly insulated? In general cold is a bigger deal in Europe than warmth, and will continue to be so.

German style tilting windows close as tightly as the regular (or door-like as you say) do. UK has windows sliding up, but is also famous for being drafty as the windows are never tight. I suppose good sliding windows can exist though?

I have myself pondered the problem with regular windows and a movable AC. My apartment has old school 4-pane windows with 2 layers both having their own window handles, so 8 independent small windows for each opening. They do look great in an old building but I don't see any reasonable way to set up AC with these. Thankfully no need yet as the apartment has never reached 30C inside, but we'll see what the future brings.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#122

Post by godwinson__4-8 »

Levitz wrote: post #102
fakedang wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt many of the researchers migrating even want Chinese citizenship and the chains that come along with it, so why do most people (presumably Americans) keep harping on and on about it? Once you're invited by the CCP for your exceptional research background, you're literally given an open chequebook for both your personal compensation and your future research endeavors. You're allowed to take your family along wi…

>I doubt many of the researchers migrating even want Chinese citizenship and the chains that come along with it, so why do most people (presumably Americans) keep harping on and on about it? Because it's an important matter regarding immigration. If you want to live in a country, you might want to actually be a citizen of that country. Does that need explaining? >Once you're invited by the CCP for your exceptional re…

Have you ever lived overseas? Honestly you sound delusional. Do you think the USA makes it easy to become a citizen? Short of that, there is a wide spectrum on how countries treats immigrants. This is the most important factor for people actually living in a place. Acting like the bar for living somewhere is citizenship is nuts.

> Are you seriously suggesting that people can literally just not engage at all with the society they live in?

This pretty much confirms you have never lived overseas lol. Anyone who has will have met many people that achieve this. Like living anywhere immersing yourself in your surroundings (w/e that means to you) takes extra effort. Most people go overseas to work. It's not playtime. With that comes a built in community.

> None of which is related to immigration

How is getting money and support to live in a place not related to immigration?

Why are you so reactive about something you clearly know nothing about? Because China bad?

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#123

Post by WarmWash »

Zigurd wrote: post #83
tasuki wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks What do you mean? I've never been to China, but know quite a few non-han white Europeans who lived there for both shorter and longer periods of time. Some studied, others worked there.

Though it was years ago now, I did spend a couple of years frequently traveling to China for fairly long stays. I learned enough Mandarin to get by on my own. The "scariest" thing is realizing you might have to walk for an hour in a random direction to come across a landmark like a known metro station or a hotel where you can get a taxi and have the concierge translate your desired destination. I was mostly in first…

I think the concern is more along the lines of social integration than criminal hostility. Japan for instance has basically zero crime, and tons of tourists, but is notoriously impossible to ever become "Japanese" as an outsider.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#124

Post by ericmay »

Lutger wrote: post #36
ericmay wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US we sometimes use the term “bribe” in morally neutral or even positive situations. It just means giving someone money or a different incentive to convince them to do something they weren’t going to do or were undecided but considering doing and the extra incentive is the catalyst for making the decision. We also have the legal concept of a bribe but the OP probably wasn’t using it in the legal sense - I.e. a…

The money isn't really for the researchers personally, but for doing the research. They are merely offered a job at a time where their jobs are on the line in the USA. And not even that, they still have to apply and compete with top researchers from other parts of the world. Really hard to call that a bribe, even in a morally neutral way. At most you could say the Netherlands - and other European countries - are taki…

The OP is using the terms incentive and bribe interchangeably. People do that in the US all the time. I don't think anyone really thinks it is wrong or morally disagreeable what the Netherlands is doing nor are they using the term in the legal sense. I was just explaining why someone might have used that term, obviously the OP probably should speak for themselves though in case they did mean it in the legal sense or something.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#125

Post by jltsiren »

doctorwho42 wrote: post #103
jltsiren wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because there is less competition for jobs and grants. Europe spends more on academic research (as a fraction of GDP) than the US, but there are more people competing for the funding.

Are you sure about that? Most people miss the fact that a sizeable % of our military budget is slated for research grants/funding. I'm a physicist in academia, and the amount of money we have gotten from DoD branches for things that have no immediate military applications is like 40-60% of our budget YoY. Like for straight fundamental physics research. Most scientists I know who have gone to Europe have had to go int…

The US spends less on academic research than the OECD average. See, for example, https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb202326/academic-r-d-internatio...

From a European perspective, the most noticeable sign of this is the scarcity of postdocs at American universities. Some fields and individual labs are better funded, but on the average, the universities lean heavily on students doing the actual research.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#126

Post by wolvoleo »

dataflow wrote: post #104
wolvoleo wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The finger-pointing by the US about lack of aircon in europe is just a stupid republican talking point. As everything that comes out of republicans these days it's misdirected and purely politically motivated. And it's none of their business anyway. They're just trying to stir up extreme-right sentiment here. Yes many houses don't have AC. We didn't need it so much until climate change (of which the US is one of the…

...what are you talking about? This was from my personal experience being in Europe many times, including in the middle of this very last heat wave. This one thing made it miserable. I couldn't even sleep and had to move to other buildings more than once. On more than one occasion locals themselves told me there were legal reasons certain buildings couldn't have A/C, despite them wanting to install it. And it from pe…

Maybe monumental buildings might have some regulatory concern but where I live it's not an issue. My neighbours in the same flat have 2 big condensers (the outside box of a split AC box) on their balcony. I just don't want to invest in it myself so I have only one of those stupid porta units, not great but it does the job when I need to cool down a bit. And our building is monumental from the 1800s. Also, every single hotel and commercial place has it.

But really in the netherlands which this article is about it should not be a barrier. The weather there in summer is extremely variable. Yes you get some hot days but they are few. And like I said, if you really want AC you are free to pick a place that has it. If you're a skilled migrant you will be well compensated anyway. You will have your pick. Viewing that as a barrier is just blowing things out of proportion.

The same way that American media is these days talking about Europe like it's overrun with migrants, it's just political.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#127

Post by esafak »

dzonga wrote: post #75
jasonhong wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Whether China is immigration friendly or not is debatable. However, here's a recent announcement from last week: Nobel Laureate in Chemistry Omar M. Yaghi joins Tsinghua University full-time https://www.tsinghua.edu.cn/en/info/1244/14984.htm

unfortunately people won't see how bad this is. most of the A.I researchers are already Chinese. now imagine other talented researchers on their way to earn Nobels - they're already in China & other countries but not visible yet. this corrupt US administration fxxked the US in ways that will be felt for decades.

It's good for dangerous people to be denied resources. Scientists leaving Germany turned the tide.

edit: I was not suggesting China was the good side; Europe is least dangerous today.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#128

Post by gedy »

pjerem wrote: post #87
palata wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot deeper than active wars and energy supply issues??? Europe's economy has been slowing down since 2007, which is the peak of conventional oil. The problem of Europe is that is doesn't have access to abundant energy like the US does. The US likes to think that they have a better economy because they are smarter/work harder, but the reality is simple: abundant energy makes the economy.

If you measure economical performance with PIB per capita, yeah, for sure, US has a better economy. If you measure with anything else useful like (healthy) life expectancy or happiness level, state of the democracy, etc... like if you think the the economy must serve the people and not the other way, I'd say Europe is way more successful despite the real issues. Actually, I'm baffled at how US performs poorly for the…

> I'm baffled at how US performs poorly for their people given they have abundant energy. Norway and Iceland also have abundant energy and their people are seeing the benefits.

It's just a totally different scale of comparison that does not work - those Nordic countries are smaller than many counties in US states. It's like comparing Iceland to Santa Barbara, etc.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#130

Post by RetroTechie »

jltsiren wrote: post #95
doctorwho42 wrote: post #90

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any how much available funding is there in the EU? One of the reasons that so many researchers come to the US, even with our decline in research funding over the last 30 years, is because the US makes available so much God damn funding in comparison to any western world. The reason China is starting to outstrip the US? Because they are starting to surpass the US in funding. The only downside I have heard from Chinese…

Because there is less competition for jobs and grants. Europe spends more on academic research (as a fraction of GDP) than the US, but there are more people competing for the funding.

The more important US vs Europe difference is that in US there's much more funds for the research -> startup -> scaleup stages.

There's plenty of academics doing fundamental research in Europe. But somehow the ball is dropped on turning that research into successful businesses. So eg. uni graduates doing research in EU, then move to US & found a startup there, is sadly a common pattern.

As I understand it, mostly due to funding suppliers (gov, VCs, banks etc) being more risk-averse than in US. Regulation pressure doesn't help either.

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