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Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

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Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#61

Post by Dumblydorr »

goldenarm wrote: post #57
bergen wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it an accident though? This seems very deliberate

Maybe the current administration underestimates the impact of public research, and thinks Silicon Valley appeared out of nowhere.

Either they underestimate, which is ignorance, or they estimate properly and are anti-truth.

What use do propagandists and fascists have for research? It only stands to continually disprove their lies. They obviously hate science and truth and want it gone, to be replaced with cult of personality and Christian nationalism.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#62

Post by Cthulhu_ »

greenavocado wrote: post #21

The article has failed to prove that anybody has taken the bait and left. > For the researcher, the qualities must, from an international perspective, far exceed what is customary within the international peer group. The institution receives a maximum of €1 million per researcher for the next five years. Let's be generous and assume you are one of the chosen ones. Your institution will take 20% off the top leaving wi…

This assumes the 1 million is all they get or can use to pay them with. The 1 million is a subsidy, not their salary.

Besides, 90K after taxes is upper middle class. 160K / year is 13K / month which is nearly twice the average income of the richest country in Europe (Switzerland) (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_European_countries_by_...), or top 0.1% according to https://www.givingwhatwecan.org/how-rich-am-i.

And that's just salary based on that number, it doesn't include other income sources.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#63

Post by jasonlotito »

ericmay wrote: post #30
vincnetas wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you call paying someone legally a "bribe" ?

In the US we sometimes use the term “bribe” in morally neutral or even positive situations. It just means giving someone money or a different incentive to convince them to do something they weren’t going to do or were undecided but considering doing and the extra incentive is the catalyst for making the decision. We also have the legal concept of a bribe but the OP probably wasn’t using it in the legal sense - I.e. a…

> In the US we sometimes use the term “bribe” in morally neutral or even positive situations.

I live here in the US. I've NEVER heard the term bribe in a neutral or even positive way. It might be used in a mocking way, as if to mock the idea of bribes, but never seriously.

So, unless you are confusing that mocking nature as morally neutral or even positive, this is incorrect.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#65

Post by drstewart »

bergen wrote: post #52
blueaquilae wrote: post #11

Experts in flies reproduction leave fro Netherlands.

The US once was proud of its scientific achievements, now parts of it replaced that with being very proud of their ignorance

I thought Europe was proud and independent and completely decoupled from the US, why do you need US scientists suddenly? Hmm...

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#66

Post by nyeah »

ericmay wrote: post #30
vincnetas wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you call paying someone legally a "bribe" ?

In the US we sometimes use the term “bribe” in morally neutral or even positive situations. It just means giving someone money or a different incentive to convince them to do something they weren’t going to do or were undecided but considering doing and the extra incentive is the catalyst for making the decision. We also have the legal concept of a bribe but the OP probably wasn’t using it in the legal sense - I.e. a…

Sometimes. But bribery is also a crime, so using that word invites comment.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#67

Post by losvedir »

John23832 wrote: post #45
coldtea wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The amount of skilled immigrants, researchers and engineers, matters for this comparison. Not just the total amount including random people arriving at the coast.

No, total immigration matters. Human progress is always subject to the law large numbers. Skilled polish engineers don't want to be the only polish person in the entire country. They want food, culture, community that reminds them of home. Even as they assimilate. That's why the American melting pot works well. It encourages enclaves that touch one another. China is the opposite of that. You are hard hammered into th…

> American melting pot

For what it's worth, this is the terminology I learned in school decades ago, but I don't think it's preferred anymore. My daughter has a book that calls it a "salad" instead (mixed but retaining their respective properties). I'm probably just old and crotchety but I like that way less.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#69

Post by petcat »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #50
JSR_FDED wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have the first 34 researchers, all from top universities and institutes. That’s a major achievement, because as the article says, every researcher brings new knowledge as well as a whole international network with them.

Exactly; the biggest company in the Netherlands and its products (ASML and high end lithography machines), is built on top of the works of only a handful of researchers. The US nuclear weapons and space programs were similarly built on top of researchers they got from Europe. This is very much NOT a numbers game, and I want to believe top researchers rate their work and the benefit of humanity higher than a country,…

> the biggest company in the Netherlands and its products (ASML and high end lithography machines), is built on top of the works of only a handful of researchers.

This is... wildly wrong. ASML is a multi-national company that licenses IP largely from USA and Japan, but also Taiwan and Germany. The actual EUV light source is developed and produced in California by Cymer, which ASML acquired in 2013. But ASML was only permitted to acquire the company under a strict technology sharing and export control agreement with the US government. Additionally, a huge portion of the photolithography research is directly developed (and owned) by US companies and research organizations such as IBM, Albany NanoTech, and SEMATECH.

There is a reason why ASML's next-generation research photolithography machine is currently being installed and developed in upstate New York, and not somewhere in the Netherlands. The same reason that Cymer is still in San Diego instead of being relocated to Europe.

[0] https://www.eetimes.com/asml-to-build-400-million-us-researc...

[1] https://www.eetimes.com/asml-sematech-team-on-manufacturing-...

[2] https://research.ibm.com/blog/euv-center-albany-nstc

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