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Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

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Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#31

Post by zipy124 »

greenavocado wrote: post #21

The article has failed to prove that anybody has taken the bait and left. > For the researcher, the qualities must, from an international perspective, far exceed what is customary within the international peer group. The institution receives a maximum of €1 million per researcher for the next five years. Let's be generous and assume you are one of the chosen ones. Your institution will take 20% off the top leaving wi…

Academic pay is standardised in many EU countries. For example in the UK you can look up union rates of pay. At UCL (I'm still currently affiliated as I finish my PhD) the pay for a professor starts at £82,157 and goes up to a minimum of £139,882 for the top band. There is an additional £4,678 on top as a London allowance. This roughly lines up with your figure per year, so seems reasonable as an allocation of cost.

Also there are usually very very generous pension schemes here, so total pay is actually quite a lot higher than stated. In addition there is very generous holiday allowance, 41 days at UCL for instance, since you get extra holidays when the university is closed over certain holiday days.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#32

Post by JSR_FDED »

cdash wrote: post #6

This title is such clickbait. All the article talks about is a Dutch fund created to recruit scientists and they have successfully recruited them. At 1 million euros per head.

They have the first 34 researchers, all from top universities and institutes. That’s a major achievement, because as the article says, every researcher brings new knowledge as well as a whole international network with them.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#35

Post by John23832 »

tasuki wrote: post #29
est31 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks, but I guess chinese researchers won't make it to the US and this already will have a great effect on the chinese economy. Europe is in its own set of problems and it is not in the same situation that US used to be after WW2 (only major economy not affected by bombing). Europe's problems: * active major war in Ukraine (lasting longer than Axis/Soviet war in WW2)…

> China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks What do you mean? I've never been to China, but know quite a few non-han white Europeans who lived there for both shorter and longer periods of time. Some studied, others worked there.

In total, China has roughly the same amount of immigrants as Ireland.

China is also objectively becoming more closed, not more open.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#36

Post by Lutger »

ericmay wrote: post #30
vincnetas wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

why do you call paying someone legally a "bribe" ?

In the US we sometimes use the term “bribe” in morally neutral or even positive situations. It just means giving someone money or a different incentive to convince them to do something they weren’t going to do or were undecided but considering doing and the extra incentive is the catalyst for making the decision. We also have the legal concept of a bribe but the OP probably wasn’t using it in the legal sense - I.e. a…

The money isn't really for the researchers personally, but for doing the research. They are merely offered a job at a time where their jobs are on the line in the USA. And not even that, they still have to apply and compete with top researchers from other parts of the world. Really hard to call that a bribe, even in a morally neutral way. At most you could say the Netherlands - and other European countries - are taking advantages of the situation where the USA is abandoning their top researchers.

But for years it has been the other way around. Top talent from the Netherlands has been moving to the US in order to get funding (and a bigger salary).

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#37

Post by Cthulhu_ »

jesdo wrote: post #12

Great initiative, and good to see that it has an effect. I'm a bit sceptical about the available funds. 1 million over 5 years is a nice starting package (4+ PhD students), but the availability of overall research grant money in the Netherlands has been under pressure for years and is difficult to acquire. Researchers moving here may find it difficult to acquire further grant money compared to US, at least in CS.

It'll be on top of any other grants and funding available for research though.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#38

Post by koiueo »

vincnetas wrote: post #24
luma wrote: post #8

This reads more like The Netherlands hopes to bribe US researchers into moving to the Netherlands.

why do you call paying someone legally a "bribe" ?

Paying government to make laws allowing you to gain extra profits – lobbying (not a bribe)

Paying mandatory but arbitrary amount to a restaurant on top of your bill – tips (not a hidden fee).

Paying someone an official salary – a bribe.

American logic

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#39

Post by est31 »

tasuki wrote: post #29
est31 wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks, but I guess chinese researchers won't make it to the US and this already will have a great effect on the chinese economy. Europe is in its own set of problems and it is not in the same situation that US used to be after WW2 (only major economy not affected by bombing). Europe's problems: * active major war in Ukraine (lasting longer than Axis/Soviet war in WW2)…

> China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks What do you mean? I've never been to China, but know quite a few non-han white Europeans who lived there for both shorter and longer periods of time. Some studied, others worked there.

I've never been to China either. It's a huge country and it probably depends on where you are (hong kong probably friendlier than a random place in the mainland), but from what I heard/read:

* language issues. Many chinese don't speak english. Also a problem in many european countries (esp latin and slavic speaking ones), but at least the european languages are easier to learn. Compare this to Amsterdam, Goteborg, Berlin-Mitte or Kopenhagen where everyone speaks english.

* citizenship is one of the hardest to get in the world.

* I heard complaints about onboarding into the chinese app/digital ID ecosystem.

Re: Top researchers leave USA for the Netherlands (in Dutch)

#40

Post by coldtea »

John23832 wrote: post #35
tasuki wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> China is not very immigration friendly to non-han folks What do you mean? I've never been to China, but know quite a few non-han white Europeans who lived there for both shorter and longer periods of time. Some studied, others worked there.

In total, China has roughly the same amount of immigrants as Ireland. China is also objectively becoming more closed, not more open.

The amount of skilled immigrants, researchers and engineers, matters for this comparison.

Not just the total amount including random people arriving at the coast.

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