GLM 5.2 and the coming AI margin collapse • Hacker News Board

Re: GLM 5.2 and the coming AI margin collapse

#141

Post by thisisit » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 3:18 AM UTC

fny wrote: post #5

I'm not convinced raw costs matter: 1. Compute costs collapsed since the advent of Cloud and yet hyperscalers still have fat margins. 2. Many open source office suites exist yet none compete with the ubiquity of gsuite or office. GitHub, Slack are similar examples. 3. Both Windows and macOS dominate the home desktop space despite free alternatives existing for a long time. 4. Many formerly open source infrastructure…

You missed two things one, a consist thread across all your examples - every market ends with a duopoly along with smaller competitors and two, which of these industries started with multiple billion dollars companies competing with each other?

Even if your case is that two companies in the AI group are going to survive and those will have healthy margins, others are going to suffer and compete on price. So saying “AI margins are going to suffer” is a fair industry wide statement. Maybe it’s not Anthropic or OpenAI or whoever you are thinking of but surely for Gemini or xAI etc?

Re: GLM 5.2 and the coming AI margin collapse

#142

Post by yowlingcat » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 3:23 AM UTC

fny wrote: post #5

I'm not convinced raw costs matter: 1. Compute costs collapsed since the advent of Cloud and yet hyperscalers still have fat margins. 2. Many open source office suites exist yet none compete with the ubiquity of gsuite or office. GitHub, Slack are similar examples. 3. Both Windows and macOS dominate the home desktop space despite free alternatives existing for a long time. 4. Many formerly open source infrastructure…

I don't disagree with your conclusions (enterprises will pay top dollar for service guarantees, integration, and someone they can sue) but by that same logic there is no clear winner with Anthropic/OpenAI. Claude has a habit of going down on me when I need it most and seems to be struggling to even keep 3 nines of availability. They're actively hostile to integration and seem more convinced they should be suing others than behaving in a way that doesn't get them sued.

That's not to say I don't believe that there won't be a closed source correlate. I just don't know if OAI and Ant are all that exists.

Re: GLM 5.2 and the coming AI margin collapse

#143

Post by fragmede » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 3:25 AM UTC

ChadNauseam wrote: post #50

tarpitt wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

GLM-5.2 is not as good as Opus, it's better. I can abliterate GLM-5.2 and have it work on projects that Opus refuses.

I'd guess opus refusals are not an issue for 95%+ of people. Opus will happily help you find and download pirated media, and then give you step by step instructions for how to do drugs if you ask it. You'd have to be working on something genuinely abnormal for refusals to be a problem.

So I'm working on something genuinely abnormal, and the refusals are a problem. Then what? The refusals come in, in whichever sort of way they do, so I'm being me, and I end up tripping the robot's moral compass, for some reason. Who put them in charge of things?

Re: GLM 5.2 and the coming AI margin collapse

#144

Post by altmanaltman » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 3:28 AM UTC

shaewest wrote: post #98

lompad wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't just need healthy margins, they need to make back almost a trillion dollars in a couple of years. Comparing that to elastic search and redis doesn't make much sense. Hyperscalers work because it actually has value compared to free offerings and because of the absolutely massive cost of switching providers. Similar with Windows and macOS. Extremely high cost of switching to something different, if possible…

The companies don't necessarily need to make back $1T, the investors do, and those investors don't require $1T in profit to do so, they need an asset worth $1T. Considering leaks suggest Anthropic's ARR would be $47B, that'd be a 20x valuation, but it wouldn't shock me if Anthropic doubles their revenue in the next year or two, in which a 10x revenue could easily support a $1T valuation, and boom there's your ROI, bu…

Wait what? Why are you measuring valuation as 20x revenue here? If its a public stock (which is what anthropic plans to be soon), it doesn't matter. Otherwise spacex's valuation should be... 18.67 billion x 20 by your logic but its current valuation is over 2 trillion dollars right now.

ARR literally doesn't mean much in terms of how these companies are valued by investors and it will mean little when it goes public. And yeah 10x their revenue in a year sure but they will also likely 10x their costs if they want to keep scaling

Re: GLM 5.2 and the coming AI margin collapse

#145

Post by RichardChu » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 3:29 AM UTC

Is this AI written (or edited)? The word "genuinely" appears 4 times on the page.

Man, I hate how often people/LLMs use that word now. Maybe other people gloss over it but it's super distracting to me.

Re: GLM 5.2 and the coming AI margin collapse

#146

Post by rhipitr » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 3:30 AM UTC

cogman10 wrote: post #31

fny wrote: post #5

I'm not convinced raw costs matter: 1. Compute costs collapsed since the advent of Cloud and yet hyperscalers still have fat margins. 2. Many open source office suites exist yet none compete with the ubiquity of gsuite or office. GitHub, Slack are similar examples. 3. Both Windows and macOS dominate the home desktop space despite free alternatives existing for a long time. 4. Many formerly open source infrastructure…

Unlike all your examples, switching out an LLM is both cheap an easy. So easy that every 3 months or so new models are released and people grab them and start using them. The UX is the same regardless the provider. You send in a prompt, it spits back an answer. In all your other cases, the cost to switch is losing support and a difficult transition period. But in the case of LLMs, there was no support to begin with.…

Switching out an LLM? What do you mean by this? Sure some models can run locally but in a company with lots do people they might not be willing to spend to self host a larger model that requires beefier hardware to host, plus all the complexity to scale that out to a bit internal user-base

Re: GLM 5.2 and the coming AI margin collapse

#147

Post by blondie9x » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 3:42 AM UTC

Disclosure - Fireworks kindly gave me some free credit to experiment with GLM to help write this article.

Re: GLM 5.2 and the coming AI margin collapse

#148

Post by bayarearefugee » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 3:43 AM UTC

iknowstuff wrote: post #81

cogman10 wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unlike all your examples, switching out an LLM is both cheap an easy. So easy that every 3 months or so new models are released and people grab them and start using them. The UX is the same regardless the provider. You send in a prompt, it spits back an answer. In all your other cases, the cost to switch is losing support and a difficult transition period. But in the case of LLMs, there was no support to begin with.…

I don’t exactly see orgs lining up to switch (and train) their employees between claude desktop and codex and whatever copilot is doing. There’s probably some inertia to those harnesses/integrations on top of the llms themselves.

What "training" do you have to do to get a professional developer to switch LLMs or harnesses? Its literally just download the other one, point it to your code base and start typing into that text box instead of the other one.

Re: GLM 5.2 and the coming AI margin collapse

#149

Post by majormajor » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 3:44 AM UTC

fny wrote: post #5

I'm not convinced raw costs matter: 1. Compute costs collapsed since the advent of Cloud and yet hyperscalers still have fat margins. 2. Many open source office suites exist yet none compete with the ubiquity of gsuite or office. GitHub, Slack are similar examples. 3. Both Windows and macOS dominate the home desktop space despite free alternatives existing for a long time. 4. Many formerly open source infrastructure…

> It's nobody gets fired for buying IBM all over again.

I think that's the historical analogue. How is IBM doing compared to pre-personal-computer disruption? Initially-limited home OSes like DOS were good enough to eventually dominate business too. The AI labs, with their massive funding and spending, are speedrunning the whole thing in a way that just might make that disruption faster and more fatal vs the lingering zombie relying on the IBM name. (The more massive amounts of capital you raise on future speculation of enormouse TAMs before, say, becoming profitable, the more dependent you are on the future speculations of outside interests. Double-edged sword.)

And I don't think being suspicious of the future of OpenAI margins is the same as saying open source DIY will dominate at all.

People don't wanna install their own OS or deal with changes in their office suite or rack their own servers, but a low-cost AI provider is gonna be more like a Wikipedia-vs-Encarta situation in terms of accessibility and similarity-of-interface.

Re: GLM 5.2 and the coming AI margin collapse

#150

Post by zkmon » Tue, Jul 07, 2026, 3:46 AM UTC

fny wrote: post #5

I'm not convinced raw costs matter: 1. Compute costs collapsed since the advent of Cloud and yet hyperscalers still have fat margins. 2. Many open source office suites exist yet none compete with the ubiquity of gsuite or office. GitHub, Slack are similar examples. 3. Both Windows and macOS dominate the home desktop space despite free alternatives existing for a long time. 4. Many formerly open source infrastructure…

Nobody got fired for IBM, but it took some battles for IBM to reach that level. Same with AI. Brand images won't develop until the street battles are over and dust settled. Otherwise, Google wouldn't have taken over Yahoo and ChatGPT would have remained the king. That didn't happen. The street fights are still raging in AI and won't settle down any time soon. Cost-concious usage can kick-out Anthropic overnight. Ultimately it's only the cost that matters and that will blunt all other factors, including security concerns and risk aversion etc.

Also, note that even the highly-regulated sectors invited opensource products and services and allowed data transfer across their network perimeter. That required "blunting" of the security policies, and it did happen.