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Programmers need to start meditating

jacob.gold

121–130 of 178 posts

Re: Programmers need to start meditating

#121
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The people I'm talking about literally like coding for the sake of coding (many have shared comments here on HN about it in the past too), which I think is the same group who now are loosing their "passion for software engineering" as the LLM takes over the typing/coding part, but still leaves the design/intention to the human. But yes I agree, one does not equal the other, but if one person has one of those characte…

Agreed, I see a lot of the type of people you're describing on here.

That type are called "engineers". I used to interview them and I didn't care if they knew anything about the business.

Large codebases are the most complex things we have ever worked on and can easily become unmaintainable. I wanted people who really cared about code quality and consistency in order to offset this.

I think that it would be even more important to hire people like that now and even though we will need less programmers there were never enough of that type to go around anyway.

Re: Programmers need to start meditating

#122
post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it was impossible to write code for 8 hours straight, you naturally had to stop but you can prompt for 8 hours more or less like running versus cycling - you can cover more distance by cycling and it's less intensive (I'm talking casual running/cycling, not racing) agents are a bicycle for the mind

Why is prompting for 8 hours easier than coding for 8 hours? Is it because the prompts matter less?

I don’t know how any engineer can claim this. Is this guy even reviewing his “output”?

You have to take a lot of these comments on this site with a grain of salt. These guys are not pushing out stuff they are professionally liable for.

Re: Programmers need to start meditating

#123
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One idea to consider might be going into safety critical embedded work (e.g. brake controllers, critical systems for airplanes/trains, medical devices, some industrial systems, ...). AI hasn't penetrated much here yet. It isn't at all clear how or if you would be able to certify the process for example. That might change with time, but for now, all I see AI used for is additional code review and side scripts/tooling…

"Switch to a field that involves many people dying if you write a bug" doesn't sound like the less stressful alternative to me.

So maybe try the weapons industry? If you write a bug, it will probably miss the target, and people won't die.

Re: Programmers need to start meditating

#124

Just wanted stop here to say that I find myself lucky to be able to retain employment as a gamedev engineer without using any AI or agent in my daily process. I work remote, so I don't know what the experience of my collegues entails. Am I really slipping into antiquity?

If you use zero AI, I would say yes

Re: Programmers need to start meditating

#125
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One idea to consider might be going into safety critical embedded work (e.g. brake controllers, critical systems for airplanes/trains, medical devices, some industrial systems, ...). AI hasn't penetrated much here yet. It isn't at all clear how or if you would be able to certify the process for example. That might change with time, but for now, all I see AI used for is additional code review and side scripts/tooling…

"Switch to a field that involves many people dying if you write a bug" doesn't sound like the less stressful alternative to me.

Especially for developers of server, desktop, or web software. Experience in those fields will be more a hindrance than an advantage if you want to enter embedded development. Embedded is a whole different beast and you’d have to unlearn a lot of bad habits and expectations that your former field instilled in you. No hiring manager will give you the time for that.

Re: Programmers need to start meditating

#126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One idea to consider might be going into safety critical embedded work (e.g. brake controllers, critical systems for airplanes/trains, medical devices, some industrial systems, ...). AI hasn't penetrated much here yet. It isn't at all clear how or if you would be able to certify the process for example. That might change with time, but for now, all I see AI used for is additional code review and side scripts/tooling…

The problem is that everyone is having that idea at the same time! Posts on /r/embedded asking a related question keep being shut down because there are so many web developers now asking daily how they can get into embedded systems because of a perceived lack of LLM penetration. No such thing! Companies that aren't already actively using AI for embedded development are looking closely at it and experimenting with pro…

Indeed. GPT 5.4 was perfectly happy to help me write some 8051 assembly and integrate it into a weird vendor-specific Eclipse/Keil C51 build system. I would never have had the time or patience to figure it out. Embedded isn’t ready for full vibe coding to the extent that web development is, but it’s certainly not going to be an escape from AI.

Re: Programmers need to start meditating

#127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It being boring is part of the point - normally your brain is constantly stimulated so it does indeed feel strange and uncomfortable when that stimulus is taken away. Pushing through that is what leads to progress. Meditation is like physical exercise, it's not exactly "fun" at the time, you sort of have to learn to enjoy it, but it's never easy. Like exercise the real reward is backloaded

This is exactly what the OP and I argue against, people insisting that it must be good for everyone. By the way the 'painful' part does more heaviy lifting there, not the boring. I've really tried a LOT during therapy and in some other situations. And it just doesn't work for me. Same with traditional exercise by the way. I can't do exercise in a gym (too empty) or have those 'gamification' goals, it must be more nat…

That’s all reasonable, and everyone is different , but I do think your original comment needed pushback, because meditation is often portrayed as enjoyable and easy at least in certain kinds of media. And I do think a lot of people give up when they find it boring and painful on their first practice.

And for me, it is boring and painful AND useful. And took weeks to start to show any benefits at all. Sort of like going to the gym. And people should know that that is a common thing, that you might hate meditation practice but still find it useful and continue.

Re: Programmers need to start meditating

#128
post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It being boring is part of the point - normally your brain is constantly stimulated so it does indeed feel strange and uncomfortable when that stimulus is taken away. Pushing through that is what leads to progress. Meditation is like physical exercise, it's not exactly "fun" at the time, you sort of have to learn to enjoy it, but it's never easy. Like exercise the real reward is backloaded

It eventually worked for you - great. That doesn't prove that it will eventually work for everyone. At some point, when something is not working, you have to write off the sunk cost. In many cases, there's no obvious threshold as to when you make that decision, and it's easy to think that maybe, if you'd just held out a little longer, been a bit more determined, you could have made it work. But you have to make a cal…

I'll be honest, both these things are true:

It works extremely well, and I don't do it as consistently as I should, precisely because it's actually kind of hard work and the reward is uncertain and delayed (though it can also be enjoyable at the time sometimes).

So I'm also in the boat where I don't get the benefits I could get, I get it. Making it a routine is legitimately hard.

I just find it hard to believe that it wouldn't be beneficial to most people if they stuck with it, because so many human problems are caused by fixating on the past and future and ignoring the present.

I can't experience what it's like to be someone else, but based on what other people say and do, most people seem to be experiencing similar problems to me in this regard.

Having said that: if you have any kind of mental health condition like depersonalisation, derealisation etc, you should consult a medical professional before starting any kind of meditation programme.

These are powerful techniques that can be dangerous if used inappropriately by the wrong person

Re: Programmers need to start meditating

#129
post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that everyone is having that idea at the same time! Posts on /r/embedded asking a related question keep being shut down because there are so many web developers now asking daily how they can get into embedded systems because of a perceived lack of LLM penetration. No such thing! Companies that aren't already actively using AI for embedded development are looking closely at it and experimenting with pro…

Indeed. GPT 5.4 was perfectly happy to help me write some 8051 assembly and integrate it into a weird vendor-specific Eclipse/Keil C51 build system. I would never have had the time or patience to figure it out. Embedded isn’t ready for full vibe coding to the extent that web development is, but it’s certainly not going to be an escape from AI.

The issue with AI isn't that it can't write embedded code (though it is noticeably worse at it), the issue is specifically with the safety certification of code the AI produced. There is a lot of paper trail to show that you followed all relevant standards, a lot of which pertains to your development process.

It is not just what you do or don't do in the code (e.g. MISRA or CERT C) but there is also a lot about how you test, review, show that your tests cover everything relevant (not just code coverage, but also specification coverage), show how you check that everyone involved followed the process, etc.

Re: Programmers need to start meditating

#130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It being boring is part of the point - normally your brain is constantly stimulated so it does indeed feel strange and uncomfortable when that stimulus is taken away. Pushing through that is what leads to progress. Meditation is like physical exercise, it's not exactly "fun" at the time, you sort of have to learn to enjoy it, but it's never easy. Like exercise the real reward is backloaded

This is exactly what the OP and I argue against, people insisting that it must be good for everyone. By the way the 'painful' part does more heaviy lifting there, not the boring. I've really tried a LOT during therapy and in some other situations. And it just doesn't work for me. Same with traditional exercise by the way. I can't do exercise in a gym (too empty) or have those 'gamification' goals, it must be more nat…

It's all exertion, for both "meditation" and exercise.

I'm convinced that meditation doesn't work for a lot of people because it has too much dogma about what it's supposed to be, and maybe those aspects are valid for certain pursuits, but it obscures the core principle.

Take exercise as an example first. It's also a practice that is layered under heaps of nonsense and complexity or fluffed up with idealisms and systems. If you strip all of that away it's about one simple thing: strengthening the muscles and connective tissues of your body including organs like your heart and lungs. Muscle and living tissue only responds to repeated exertion and rest (rest includes nutrition). If you never exceed your current capacity, it will never grow or strengthen and will probably weaken. So exercise becomes simply pushing yourself a little beyond your current capacity and then properly resting afterwards. How you do that is up to you, taking a longer walk than you did last week, slowly mastering calisthenic poses, progressive overload weight training, becoming actually good at ballroom dancing or ballet, competing in field sports, the same principle applies and you get much the same results.

Now returning to meditation, the first thing we should do away with is the label because it is almost as much an error as calling all exercise bodybuilding. It should really be thought of as "attention training" where you are improving your control over and the capacity of your attention. Like with your body, your mind responds to exertion and rest. Both are required. How you train your attention is up to you, sitting without distraction is perhaps the most accessible but it's about as challenging as limiting yourself to doing prison cell bodyweight exercises. Walking without distraction is a very valid practice but is harder to manage since it requires isolation and freedom from interruptions that many people would find on a walking route. Many other techniques have been developed with many different aids and systems but the important thing to remember is that you are trying to do the same thing for your attention as you are for your muscles, push it a little more beyond your current capacity each week and giving it sufficient rest between sessions (including proper nutrition and sleep). If the usual things that are sold as meditation practices don't work for you then try things that seem more natural to you but which still stretch your attention. This could be viewing a piece of art for a set amount of time, finding a location with a fairly static view and doing the same, holding or placing an item you own in front of you and examining it, repeating a line from a book or a poem, listening to a single note repeated on an instrument or hummed. It doesn't really matter much what it is as long as it takes effort to contemplate it for a long duration and isn't so complex and changeable that it overwhelms your untrained ability to fully consider each part of it. Even more active practices can train your attention like writing, penmanship / calligraphy, painting / sketching, yoga, dance, martial arts and others but they are probably not the best place to start if you are fully untrained.

This dovetails into the point of the article, that programming is a form of "meditation" for many people. Really, it's something that you can infinitely stretch your capacity for and exert your attention on.

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