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“Beyond the limit”: Satellites and mirrors in space pose threat to the night sky

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Re: “Beyond the limit”: Satellites and mirrors in space pose threat to the night sky

#101

Post by JumpCrisscross »

tadfisher wrote: post #94
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Its power is not democratized, it is concentrated in the hands of those building the data centers. That is why I'm against the data centers If you really believe this (and I’m not saying I don’t, I just don’t have confidence in it), blocking domestic. datacenters doesn’t preserve that labour value. It just ensures whoever builds those datacenters controls production from afar. Like, if AI really replaces human labo…

Sorry, do Memphis residents get to control xAI's production? I think we're already in this situation.

> we're already in this situation

xAI’s datacenters aren’t currently measurably replacing labour. So no, we’re not. If AI becomes economically competitive with broad sections of human labor, those who control it do have the power to replace humans.

But banning domestic datacenters doesn’t stop them from existing; it just stops them from existing here. If that precondition arises, that’s just a recipe for domestic deindustrialisation.

If you believe AI will replace human labor, blocking datacenters is silly. You want labor (or the public) to build and control them. I’m not convinced AI will replace labor, so I’m not yet at that step.

Re: “Beyond the limit”: Satellites and mirrors in space pose threat to the night sky

#103

Post by vova_hn2 »

ShinyLeftPad wrote: post #77
zer0energy wrote: post #74

I do not understand why the astronomers feel entitled to determine fair use of the sky. I feel like it's much easier and more reasonable to ask what the telescopes can do to mitigate the problem than to insist that others back off from use of the communal resource. The great observatories are marvels of engineering - a focused effort on technical mitigations to the satellite problem would likely push the problem out…

maybe for example because thanks to them we have satellites in the first place? I agree with this and I'm not an astronomer btw.

> thanks to them we have satellites in the first place?

What kind of astronomy knowledge is required to launch a satellite?

Re: “Beyond the limit”: Satellites and mirrors in space pose threat to the night sky

#104

Post by piloto_ciego »

hack1312 wrote: post #67
piloto_ciego wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a literal leftist by any reasonable metric, the recent trend towards “I wish it was 1995” and “AI is the worst” and “tech sucks now” from people I agree with on many other points frustrates me to no end. “You guys know we could basically live in a Star Trek style utopia if we get this right, right?” “The DATA cenTERS are STEALING the water and breaking Taleckshual ProPerty LERRS!” Like, I thought we were for pirac…

“if we get this right” is doing a whole lot of heavy lifting here.

But that’s the thing! We could and we can!

Re: “Beyond the limit”: Satellites and mirrors in space pose threat to the night sky

#105

Post by JumpCrisscross »

ben_w wrote: post #100
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article doesn’t consider that in a world with a million satellites in orbit, launching space-based telescopes—including into deep space—becomes an order of magnitude cheaper.

Currently writing a draft blog post on all the issues (and non-issues) with these things, it is now long enough (7k words) I'm slightly wondering if it's less "a blog post" and more "one section of a decent sized book on why we can't have nice things". Here's a visual to consider the implications of things you can do with actually one million satellites of the kind of size scale being discussed: https://raw.githubuse…

> Yes, they really would be this closely spaced: Earth's circumference is 40 million meters

Satellites don’t orbit on the ground, which makes the 40m spacing nonsense. And nobody proposes putting a million 120 kW satellites in a single orbit.

They really would never be that closely spaced. To approach those densities in a single orbital shell you’d need hundreds of billions of birds in orbit. Spread across all of LEO (and only LEO) we’re talking orders of magnitudes more satellites (like, quadrillions).

Re: “Beyond the limit”: Satellites and mirrors in space pose threat to the night sky

#106

Post by solid_fuel »

arjie wrote: post #13

These kinds of caps have for years been a dampener on human flourishing. My observation has been that those in stagnation or decline tend to attach themselves to these desires to hold the status quo. Anti-energy, anti-housing, anti-industry and so on because they've reached a local maxima in their ability to live and have chosen to spend their life in leisure. But there is the rest of the world, and if I'm told that…

> These kinds of caps have for years been a dampener on human flourishing.

I don't think blocking the view of the night sky is necessary for "human flourishing", actually. Your attitude reminds me of the Victorians, who saw their coal-smoke filled skies as a sign of virtuous progress.

More reasonable minds prevailed, in the end, and now most people have a more balanced view - with the understanding that progress and industry must be balanced with the ecosystem we live in and depend upon for life.

Re: “Beyond the limit”: Satellites and mirrors in space pose threat to the night sky

#107

Post by ben_w »

piloto_ciego wrote: post #48
arjie wrote: post #13

These kinds of caps have for years been a dampener on human flourishing. My observation has been that those in stagnation or decline tend to attach themselves to these desires to hold the status quo. Anti-energy, anti-housing, anti-industry and so on because they've reached a local maxima in their ability to live and have chosen to spend their life in leisure. But there is the rest of the world, and if I'm told that…

As a literal leftist by any reasonable metric, the recent trend towards “I wish it was 1995” and “AI is the worst” and “tech sucks now” from people I agree with on many other points frustrates me to no end. “You guys know we could basically live in a Star Trek style utopia if we get this right, right?” “The DATA cenTERS are STEALING the water and breaking Taleckshual ProPerty LERRS!” Like, I thought we were for pirac…

Mm. I know a (US) Green party campaigner who is a self-described communist (I forget which variety), who has yet to realise the contradiction between her love of trade unions and support of the environment when it presents itself in support of the famous UK coal miner's strikes.

Re: “Beyond the limit”: Satellites and mirrors in space pose threat to the night sky

#108

Post by qntmfred »

matthewdgreen wrote: post #75
arjie wrote: post #13

These kinds of caps have for years been a dampener on human flourishing. My observation has been that those in stagnation or decline tend to attach themselves to these desires to hold the status quo. Anti-energy, anti-housing, anti-industry and so on because they've reached a local maxima in their ability to live and have chosen to spend their life in leisure. But there is the rest of the world, and if I'm told that…

I didn't understand what these satellites were really like until I visited Zion National Park two weeks ago. Zion is an International Dark Sky park, and so I was really looking forward to seeing the stars. Instead we sat outside and watched dozens and dozens of fast-moving stars zip around on all sorts of trajectories. I'm not saying it ruined the experience (I'm not an astronomer, and it was kind of fun.) But it rea…

for reference https://x.com/Jeremyrand101/status/1981564984154005876

I frequently hang out in my driveway in the early evenings shooting basketball and listening to podcasts. I'll see easily several dozen satellites over the course of the hour or two that I typically stay out there. and I don't even live out in the country or anything. I think mostly people are just not aware (yet?) of how rapidly the number of satellites have grown in the last couple years.

Re: “Beyond the limit”: Satellites and mirrors in space pose threat to the night sky

#109

Post by ShinyLeftPad »

vova_hn2 wrote: post #103
ShinyLeftPad wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

maybe for example because thanks to them we have satellites in the first place? I agree with this and I'm not an astronomer btw.

> thanks to them we have satellites in the first place? What kind of astronomy knowledge is required to launch a satellite?

idk if I want to list all if it cause it will be very long but let's start with knowing that earth rotates on its axis;)

Re: “Beyond the limit”: Satellites and mirrors in space pose threat to the night sky

#110

Post by JumpCrisscross »

JBorrow wrote: post #68
arjie wrote: post #13

These kinds of caps have for years been a dampener on human flourishing. My observation has been that those in stagnation or decline tend to attach themselves to these desires to hold the status quo. Anti-energy, anti-housing, anti-industry and so on because they've reached a local maxima in their ability to live and have chosen to spend their life in leisure. But there is the rest of the world, and if I'm told that…

Moving all of astronomy to space based observations is entirely incompatible with the way that instruments are funded, built, and deployed. It is only valid for a set of highly specific and well funded observatories that take decades to get off the ground and can never be updated, improved, or modified to search new scientific directions. Why don’t “we” just build more cell towers?

> Why don’t “we” just build more cell towers?

Why is littering our landscape with cell towers and power and fiber lines inherently better than putting this stuff in space?

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