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Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

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Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#41

Post by Tade0 »

1718627440 wrote: post #25
Tade0 wrote: post #22

EDIT: Apparently it's a different plant. It's not just Infineon - it's called the European Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (ESMC) and is a joint venture by TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, and NXP, with TSMC being the majority (70%) shareholder. I've met one of the engineers designing the piping for that plant. Hardest project to date for him and mainly because TSMC was setting the pace.

These are different plants, that are situated in the same quarter. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1191197175 vs. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/583767292

You're right, honest mistake. I checked this several times, thinking "surely there aren't two chip plants built at the same time, in roughly the same location with the same company involved?".

Apparently there are.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#42

Post by seabird »

joe_mamba wrote: post #33
seabird wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Only for industrial uses” is kind of a crazy thing to say when you say it out loud, don’t you think? You might as well say “only for having real-world impact”.

And 3nm CPUs, GPUs, phone SoCs don't have "real world impact"? One could say they have an even bigger real world impact.

You do not need a 2nm processor to run an engine, perform an ultrasound, drop a missile on someone's head, make 10 million parts in a factory, or fly a plane. The vast majority of the increased processing power we've developed since the mid-2010s gets pissed away rendering 30MB websites or generating AI cheating fruit husband videos. Every phone SoC release for the last 10 years combined has done less in the real, concrete world we live in than industrial controls hardware from 30 years ago.

We can vibecode SaaS junk that we will have all forgotten about this time next year at never-before-seen speed, but every single day, hundreds or thousands of times a day, you brush up against something that was built by an AB or Siemens PLC installed in 2004 that might be slated for decommissioning in a decade or so.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#43

Post by upboundspiral »

joe_mamba wrote: post #32
blitzar wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning and weaponry in war. You might not be able to fabricate billion terraflop GPUs but at least the basics of survival will be able to be locally produced without scavenging washing machines for parts.

>Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning The (western) economy runs on sub 7nm phone, laptop and datacenter chips on which the white collar workforce produces value. Those are the ones that are also the most profitable since they have the highest margins. Europe doesn't have that.

Phones and laptops from a few years ago are not suddenly unusable.

Yes, the cutting edge is very nice, but any laptop past 2016 is useable for the average person. Even gpu inference on older process nodes is perfectly doable. The HPC space absolutely prefers newer chips but hasn't ripped out their 2018 chips in their clusters because they still deliver value.

And sure, the latest best things sells for higher margins for now, but with the way consumer prices are going, people may start choosing older still perfectly capable models that cost less.

The greater danger to a working economy is not absence of the absolute must cutting edge chips but lack of independence which this initiative seems to seek to curtail. Good for Germany.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#44

Post by topspin »

joe_mamba wrote: post #37
1718627440 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this fab was already in construction before the AI hype, this is just marketing.

[flagged]

"Process node," in the sense of logic, RAM or Flash density, isn't relevant here. These are power devices. Silicon Carbide FETS and whatnot; bulk current switching and related devices. Not frontier process node logic devices.

That reality is carefully left unclear in all this "silicon sovereignty" narrative. It's a nice plant with new tooling cranking out 300mm wafers, but it's not the same game as a TSMC or Intel fab making cutting edge, high margin silicon, and there are a number of competitors making similar power devices around the world. And yes, the "AI" fluff is pure marketing nonsense; everyone needs lots of power devices for everything. Yes, they'll obviously seek lucrative contracts to supply exotic power devices for AI applications, but that stuff gets commoditized quickly.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#45

Post by jijijijij »

joe_mamba wrote: post #32
blitzar wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning and weaponry in war. You might not be able to fabricate billion terraflop GPUs but at least the basics of survival will be able to be locally produced without scavenging washing machines for parts.

>Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning The (western) economy runs on sub 7nm phone, laptop and datacenter chips on which the white collar workforce produces value. Those are the ones that are also the most profitable since they have the highest margins. Europe doesn't have that.

Europe's economy has a higher share in the industrial and agricultural sector. The US isn't the sole "western" benchmark.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_secto...

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#46

Post by tencentshill »

_fizz_buzz_ wrote: post #7
usrnm wrote: post #2

> The plant will produce chips for intelligent power management > The company ... sought to capitalise on the massive AI investment boom These chips are probably very useful and important, but I don't see what they have to do with AI. Does everything need to have the word AI these days?

Infineon is betting big on the 800V dc power distribution that seems to become the new standard for AI data centers which is directly relevant for the chips that are made in this fab.

Hopefully they can use that tech to expand the EV fast charger network once the AI bubble pops.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#47

Post by ifwinterco »

joe_mamba wrote: post #32
blitzar wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning and weaponry in war. You might not be able to fabricate billion terraflop GPUs but at least the basics of survival will be able to be locally produced without scavenging washing machines for parts.

>Also suitable for keeping an economy functioning The (western) economy runs on sub 7nm phone, laptop and datacenter chips on which the white collar workforce produces value. Those are the ones that are also the most profitable since they have the highest margins. Europe doesn't have that.

A drone will work with 30nm chips just fine, but it won't work with no chips at all

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#48

Post by petcat »

joe_mamba wrote: post #35
alephnerd wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these are pretty low-tech chips only for industrial uses I don't like this framing. These aren't logic ICs but that doesn't mean they are useless or "easy". Heck, the only countries with Gallium Nitride fabrication capabilities and knowhow are the US, China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Germany, and India. In fact, compound semiconductors and power electronics is one segment where Europe's China dependency is extrem…

>Heck, the only countries with Gallium Nitride fabrication capabilities and knowhow are the US, China, Taiwan, Japan, South Korea, Germany, and India. So basically all major industrial powers? In which case I don't get the use of the world "only" here, as if the EU, the richest block in the world, deserve praise for doing something countries a lot less wealthier are doing. > and China has already begun embargoing the…

> EU also restricts ASML EUV machines to China

It's actually the US that restricts ASML from selling EUV machines to China. The EUV light source itself is American technology developed and produced by Cymer in California. ASML was only permitted to acquire Cymer in 2014 under a strict technology sharing and export control agreement with the US government.

It's why, for instance, ASML's next generation research lithography machine is currently being installed in upstate New York and not somewhere in the Netherlands.

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#49

Post by jijijijij »

If I was Queen of Germany, I would put everything into a platform like Arduino or RaspPi which can be widely used across industries and education. Some amount of taxes will be allocated to buy these boards and guarantee demand for manufacturing. Then every citizen gets such a device in return. Basically mandatory purchase. The education sector can completely lean in on the platform, abundance will have it dominate DIY projects and may create additional demand as reference platform. Whoever doesn't need it, can sell it or give it away to charity. This will stabilize a critical industry and aid digital education, engineering and so on. I feel like people would be more easy about a tax, if they get a physical product in exchange.

Over time this program would be extended to include and bring back other critical industries and manufacturing capabilities, ultimately leading to citizens being able to choose their mandatory product to some extent and preference. For example it would be really cool to have a basic, but very robust and repairable sewing machine, 3D printer, ... which all aid survivability/adaptability of the collective in crisis, if widely distributed. These products would also set the baseline for quality and accessibility expectations.

Of course this goes hand in hand with a 4 day work week, so people can actually learn to appreciate their mandated crisis hobbies and indulge their family and friends doing so. And if all of this doesn't pan out economically, I would simply plunder and enslave a neighboring country <3

Re: Germany’s Infineon opens major chip plant as EU seeks tech autonomy

#50

Post by jijijijij »

1718627440 wrote: post #25
Tade0 wrote: post #22

EDIT: Apparently it's a different plant. It's not just Infineon - it's called the European Semiconductor Manufacturing Company (ESMC) and is a joint venture by TSMC, Bosch, Infineon, and NXP, with TSMC being the majority (70%) shareholder. I've met one of the engineers designing the piping for that plant. Hardest project to date for him and mainly because TSMC was setting the pace.

These are different plants, that are situated in the same quarter. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/1191197175 vs. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/583767292

I wonder how these will fare in Saxony. I presume it's an industry which will attract and depend on highly qualified foreign workers. Dresden itself may be fine, but parts of Saxony are sadly no-go areas for anyone remotely non-white, or even moderately liberal. It's a really brain-damaged region outside of Dresden and Leipzig, and even those cities are not exactly welcoming examples of diversity. Given a historic chance of prosperity, I think odds are eastern Germany will shoot itself in the foot epically with this.
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