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Why jet engines aren't made in China

aakash.substack.com

251–260 of 342 posts

Re: Why jet engines aren't made in China

#251
post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The simplest explanation is surely that China is new to having a highly educated workforce and the ‘failed for some fifty years’ claims the article makes don't mean much given it. I don't think you need to entrain market arguments or whatnot to this, when it's only in the last decade China was a strong advanced manufacture player, and turbines are the kind of project that you probably wouldn't expect to go much faste…

Exactly. Advanced turbine manufacturing is largely a chemistry and metallurgy problem. The Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution killed off China's intellectual capital so they had to start from scratch in 1976, and only really got moving in 1992. They've been way behind but will catch up eventually.

Because repression is a thing of the past in China? They continue to persecute investors and business executives who get too successful and to repress academic work they find politically objectionable. The communist party continues to exercise control over all intellectual endeavors.

And don't think it doesn't matter for jet engines. This article gets into how the open acknowledgment and dissection of engine failure in the West promotes quality and that China has clearly not adopted this culture. Of course not.

They'll catch up in the same way the Soviet Union used to - at unsustainable cost and on the way to falling behind yet again.

Re: Why jet engines aren't made in China

#252

the one thing that this article leaves out is very obvious and simple: culture when you don't have an environment where truthful valid opinions or facts are allowed to freely be tested and communicated you simply can't build anything complex that requires strong individual integrity and honesty. jets aren't the only stuff that China cannot make. Semiconductors are also a great example.

China has an incredible engineering culture. If you think their meteoric rise is accomplished without being able to share opinions or facts you’re very much mistaken. To imply they lack “individual integrity and honesty” is misinformed, deluded, and likely racist.

reaching for racism over what is an obvious gap in cultural and political environment is just lazy

if China has such incredible engineering culture where are the jet engines? semiconductors ?

Re: Why jet engines aren't made in China

#253

I think part of it comes down to trust. GE can trust that metal alloy from its supplier will not be substituted, etc. They still have to manage quality but they don't have to vertically integrate just to get the level of quality they need.

A key question in assessing China’s development of indigenous turbofan engines for commercial aviation is the addressable market.

In the near term, it is highly unlikely that Chinese-made engines would be adopted by Boeing or Airbus, given certification barriers, supply chain integration challenges, and broader geopolitical considerations. As a result, the primary initial market would be China’s domestic commercial aircraft programs.

However, the scale and timing of that demand remain uncertain. Early production volumes for programs such as the C919 are relatively limited, and initial fleet sizes alone may not be sufficient to amortize the substantial research and development costs associated with modern turbofan engines. This raises questions about the commercial viability of such programs in the absence of broader international adoption.

China’s civil aviation industry is still in a relatively early stage of development. The C919, its first domestically developed narrow-body jet, has completed test flights and entered initial service with Chinese airlines. At present, it relies on engines supplied by GE. A critical milestone for the program is obtaining international airworthiness certification, particularly from U.S. and European regulators, which would enable broader global operations and improve export prospects.

If such certifications are achieved, potential demand may emerge from developing markets, including Southeast Asia and parts of Africa. Nevertheless, penetration into North American and European airline fleets would likely remain limited for the foreseeable future, even if existing Western-supplied engines continue to be used.

Recent export control measures—such as U.S. restrictions on the sale of certain engine technologies—highlight the extent to which geopolitical factors can influence supply chains in the aerospace sector. These constraints have, at times, affected delivery schedules for aircraft programs like the C919.

In this context, China’s push to develop indigenous engine capabilities can be understood as a strategic response to external dependencies. Similar dynamics have been observed in other high-technology sectors, including semiconductors and advanced computing hardware, where supply chain resilience and technological self-sufficiency have become increasingly important policy objectives.

Re: Why jet engines aren't made in China

#254
post #38
post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't China currently among the leaders of material science with lots of top 10 universities located in China? [0] (in rankings that do not incorporate prestige but actual scientific output) [0] https://scholars-stage.org/china-and-the-future-of-science/

All I know is that they produce a lot of engineers, while the US produces a lot gender studies majors. I rarely say it, but I do not foresee much that they won't be leaving us sharply behind on soon, other than poverty and homelessness, which we have pretty well covered.

I think your understanding of the numbers is multiple orders of magnitude off. Looking at a recent year (2024) in the US, the total number of "Area, Ethnic, Cultural, Gender, and Group Studies" majors graduated 11961, whereas "Engineering" was 193,458 and "Engineering/Engineering-related Technologies/Technicians" was 83,665.

From: https://nces.ed.gov/ipeds/SummaryTables/report/360?templateI...

Re: Why jet engines aren't made in China

#255

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even in our "productivity at any cost" society, sometimes people still study things that they find interesting. That's probably a good thing, in the long run.

Scale matters, and there are aftereffects on the society as a whole. Historically, societies which produced a lot of ideologically minded professionals (such as clergy), tended towards implementing that ideology top-down. I am on board with Turchin's theory of elite overproduction here, and gender studies is modern equivalent of catechism. To choose a less ideological example: personally, I love Egyptology, but I wou…

There are three times as many religion and philosophy majors as ethnic and gender studies majors. If you are worried about ideologically minded professionals, there are bigger fish to fry.

Re: Why jet engines aren't made in China

#256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Do you think todays aircraft are not designed with the idea that the engine can fail? Of course they are - but the engines are also designed to be extremely reliable, and that's why you get away with two engines on long flights over water, something previously only available for planes with four engines. > No - in effect building jet-engines (that are commercially viable i.e. fuel and efficeny) is not a easy to dis…

Aerospace as a discipline has tried just about every propulsion system under the sun. What you're proposing has already been flight tested on an unmanned vehicle, albeit with many smaller props for a larger effective prop disk than the two you're proposing. This is actually better, because electric motors want to use rpm control, so you need to keep the moment of inertia of the propellers low. The efficiency penalty…

> For a hybrid system to be worth it, you need to claw back more efficiency than you lose in going from mechanical energy to electrical energy, and then back again.

For short-haul you spend a lot of time climbing and descending in relation to long flights, so the plane spends less time at the optimum the engines were designed for (cruise), so, if the power unit can be at the peak efficiency throughout the flight, with extra energy being supplied by the onboard battery for take-off and the power unit be shut down for descent, we might get to a point where it's economically viable, depending on battery operating costs and weight.

You are right to point out the aerospace industry has tried everything conceivable to see what sticks, but technology evolution sometimes throws us a curveball.

Re: Why jet engines aren't made in China

#257

I think part of it comes down to trust. GE can trust that metal alloy from its supplier will not be substituted, etc. They still have to manage quality but they don't have to vertically integrate just to get the level of quality they need.

A key question in assessing China’s development of indigenous turbofan engines for commercial aviation is the addressable market. In the near term, it is highly unlikely that Chinese-made engines would be adopted by Boeing or Airbus, given certification barriers, supply chain integration challenges, and broader geopolitical considerations. As a result, the primary initial market would be China’s domestic commercial a…

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Re: Why jet engines aren't made in China

#258
post #134
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The free market fundamentally doesn't have a good response to this problem The market may not for the most capital-intensive businesses, but US laws at least attempt to address the situation. In Boeing's case, for example, the McDonnell-Douglas merger likely could have been blocked under existing anticompetitive laws. The US's longstanding refusal to apply antiticompetition law causes a number of harms to consumers…

Condit would probably still set in motion the moves that enabled the rot - moving HQ, unrealistic targets for 7X7 (now known as 787), selling off portions of Boeing to skim just the cream at the top, and so on. Not letting Boeing grab McDonnell-Douglas military projects might have stopped some of that, but it might have also accelerated it.

My impression was that it was a reverse buyout. Where did senior management come from after the merger?

Re: Why jet engines aren't made in China

#259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Scale matters, and there are aftereffects on the society as a whole. Historically, societies which produced a lot of ideologically minded professionals (such as clergy), tended towards implementing that ideology top-down. I am on board with Turchin's theory of elite overproduction here, and gender studies is modern equivalent of catechism. To choose a less ideological example: personally, I love Egyptology, but I wou…

There are three times as many religion and philosophy majors as ethnic and gender studies majors. If you are worried about ideologically minded professionals, there are bigger fish to fry.

Oh, sure, I would fry them all together.

Re: Why jet engines aren't made in China

#260
post #229

The more parsimonious explanation is that commercial jet engine production is downstream of commercial airbody production and China's currently limited by COMAC's scaling woes. All the money and talent in the world can't replicate real users generating real data that you can use to improve. I'd argue the opposite that jet engines have a market structure that's uniquely terrible for traditional free market societies.…

Boom Supersonic is entering the turbine engine market using private funding (they have received some limited government contracts and tax incentives). It seems like the free market is responding pretty well, although they still might fail. https://aviationweek.com/air-transport/aircraft-propulsion/b...

That was my thought too. You can absolutely enter the industry, and big players do as the industry becomes profitable enough to sustain more competitors, it's just not available to the average person in the same way the average person can easily compete in the todo app industry.
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