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Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise

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Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#401

Post by trimethylpurine »

cogman10 wrote: post #399
cedws wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC the vaccines were provably linked to the death of young people who had blood clots they shouldn't have had. The common argument made is that the vaccine saved more lives than they took, but this is pretty fucked up IMO. It's the trolley problem IRL - if you force someone to get a vaccine and they die as a result, you are responsible for their death. Also, the manufacturers can never be held responsible, because…

> but this is pretty fucked up IMO Pretty much every medication can have bad interactions. There is always a "risk/reward" analysis. But also, the vaccines linked to those kids deaths weren't the mRNA vaccines, it was the J&J vaccine which got pulled as a result.

I think the point being made here is that the risk decision should be up to the recipient of the treatment.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#402

Post by trimethylpurine »

thisisit wrote: post #228
cedws wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IIRC the vaccines were provably linked to the death of young people who had blood clots they shouldn't have had. The common argument made is that the vaccine saved more lives than they took, but this is pretty fucked up IMO. It's the trolley problem IRL - if you force someone to get a vaccine and they die as a result, you are responsible for their death. Also, the manufacturers can never be held responsible, because…

> Also, the manufacturers can never be held responsible, because they have legal immunity for the COVID vaccines. There is remedy against vaccine harm: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Vaccine_Injury_Compen... This was passed in response to claims against DPT vaccine and manufacturers stopping production of the said vaccine. Lawmakers feared loss of herd immunity and passed the law. Now vaccine skeptics say thi…

The CARES act grants immunity for the set of vaccines associated with COVID.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#403

Post by estearum »

_heimdall wrote: post #341
defrost wrote: post #203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue specifically is: early claims of vaccines preventing infection or even spread weren't supported by the trials. Who made such stupid claims and __why__? My own recollection, from Australia watching the US, was the the US political administration of the time turned any scientific based discussion into a complete shit show - many images of cowered CDC employees sucking their faces in while Trump v1.0 babbled o…

Okay got it, I didn't expect that was what you were taking issue with. At least in the US, we were constantly being told by our government leadership that we all needed to take the vaccine to stop the spread. Fauci, for example, claimed very early on that we needed herd immunity and would get thee with around a 60% vaccination rate. He both knew that number was too low for the hypothesis of herd immunity, raising it…

> They would go so far as to say unvaccinated people shouldn't be allowed into hospitals for care for unrelated health conditions.

Do you believe that someone with unmanaged ebola or measles should be allowed to go into a hospital for a broken toe?

Obviously there are possible pathogens for which this is a totally sensible position, and under uncertainty and strained resources the bar to get there gets much much lower.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#404

Post by picofarad »

teamonkey wrote: post #308
Markoff wrote: post #292

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> However if we’re going to talk about moral responsibility for vaccine mandates, we also have to consider moral responsibility for non-vaccination leading to spread of a dangerous virus during a pandemic. that's all nice and dandy except COVID "vaccines" (remember, they had to change vaccine definition for this very reason) did NOT STOP the spread, they were at best protecting some old people, it was completely poin…

Vaccines have always been about preventing the spread of the disease and “the definition of vaccines” has not changed. This is easy to prove. Simply find a high school biology textbook printed before Covid.

Vaccine the word came from vacca for "cow", and cowpox virus being weakened and injected to prevent cowpox.

MRNA is not weakened virus, it's a spike protein in this case.

Or so that's the argument.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#405

Post by qsera »

estearum wrote: post #392
qsera wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it is not good enough, then it does not matter if it is the best available. Nature does not give a damn what the best solution humanity can come up with at some arbitrary point in time.

It is absolutely good enough lol. We have effective statistical certainty in the results. Tell me: how do you know the food you eat is safe? How about the water? The air? Do you take any other medicines? All of those are less well-understood than the COVID vaccines.

> We have effective statistical certainty in the results.

Only if you blindly trust the entities that is doing the studies.

Seriously, I am not sure how anyone with a couple of brain cells between their ears can do that.

>Tell me: how do you know the food you eat is safe? How about the water? The air?

I don't. But one don't have a choice. But for other things, one certainly do.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#406

Post by picofarad »

watwut wrote: post #379
msandford wrote: post #371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Prior to COVID I seem to remember that the point of a vaccine was so that you didn't get the disease at all. That's where the herd immunity argument comes from. If 85-90% of the herd has immunity (immunity meaning you can't catch it at all) then even the people who can't get the vaccine are protected because the susceptible are too spread out for the infection to spread. Do you see how this absolutely requires not ju…

Yes some diseases were eradicated that way. Not all of them and we keep vaccinating. Herd immunity means the disease wont cause epidemic, if it comes from elsewhere. It does not mean that no single person will get the disease if he encounters it. Notably, flu vaccine did not stopped flu entirely, is the most common yearly vaccine and I really never seen anyone claim it 100% stops flu.

Oh, you made a category error, I think. Flu has variants and they sometimes "predict" which variant to prepare for incorrectly, but as far as I am aware the flu vaccine is very effective against the correct strain.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#407

Post by trimethylpurine »

croon wrote: post #354
BoingBoomTschak wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Anecdotal evidence is not evidence of systematic wrongdoing. The Norwegian country-wide study is evidence enough.

The Norwegian study landed on 4.5 cases per 100k from vaccinations [0]. Unvaccinated occurance was 200 per 100k [1]. [0] https://www.oslo-universitetssykehus.no/en/departments/hjert... [1] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/38262150/

In [1] "those who are not vaccinated" is a tiny subset of society that is actually composed of those who are infected, and also symptomatic, and also not vaccinated.

A large portion of society can't be counted because they are asymptomatic. How do you find them to count them? In fact that's nearly everyone. And for those people the vaccine increases their risk by 4/100,000. (More harm than good.)

Let me know if I've misunderstood.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#408

Post by picofarad »

bawolff wrote: post #258
natureiskino wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Comparing it to the trolley problem is incorrect. COVID had real potential to kill you, even as a young person. I don't think this is correct. If you remove the people with comorbidities, the risk for healthy young people was minuscule, there's way other issues you should concern yourself with at that point, rather than dying from COVID. Vaccinating young people with something that had the potential of side effects…

> the risk for healthy young people was minuscule Arguably so was the risk from the vaccine. About 17400 people under 20 died of covid. According to this paper https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8875435/ all the people who died from side effects of the covid vaccine were over 22 (its possible that is not exhaustive, but i can't seem to find any examples of confirmed deaths related to the vaccine for children. I…

Why do people keep saying 22? There's more than 22 videos of people suddenly falling to the ground after the vaccine mandates.

Does no one remember? I can't be the only one...

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#409

Post by cogman10 »

trimethylpurine wrote: post #401
cogman10 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but this is pretty fucked up IMO Pretty much every medication can have bad interactions. There is always a "risk/reward" analysis. But also, the vaccines linked to those kids deaths weren't the mRNA vaccines, it was the J&J vaccine which got pulled as a result.

I think the point being made here is that the risk decision should be up to the recipient of the treatment.

It always is. Nobody was forced to take the vaccine and when these first rolled out there was a brochure of potential side effects.

Re: Global review confirms mRNA vaccines are safe, effective and full of promise 

#410

Post by picofarad »

elp wrote: post #304
mrmuagi wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

2% chance of death? A quick google shows it to be around 0.16%, and the deaths seem to be allocated to people who are older or just have other comorbities. I think the scientists in retrospect just didnt want hospitals to get full honestly, since they dont have the capacity for it as it is — atleast here in Canada.

For comparison the death rate from the vaccine is around 0.0001%. Yes they didn't want the hospitals to get full. That's when the younger healthy people who would have recovered can't get the medical care they need to survive. You had to have spent covid in a pretty sad friendless hole not to know friends or family who ended up in hospital during the peaks.

> pretty sad friendless hole not to know friends or family who ended up in hospital during the peaks.

I am unsure what fallacy this is, but it is pretty offensive.

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